subject of mini-fasts

[joanneb608]

Hi to all!

I had a question about the article I read from the Eades that pertained to doing a one day fast, or something similiar. I'm an old PP who had some upheaval with job loss, relationship loss, all that good stuff, and fell off the wagon 6 months ago. In the process I gained 60 lbs., am sick of being unhealthy and out-of-shape, and I am one week back into the plan. I'm doing the PPLP thing with supplements but I like the PP part with 30 grams or less carbs per day. I have fasted before on and off for spiritual reasons, for a day and up to five days at a time, a year or so ago, but I never could find out whether it is advisable for a person to continue to take your supplements when you fast. Does anyone know what the Eades' position on this would be?

I think the forum is great, I am 100% dedicated to the low carb lifestyle as the healthiest and I think the Eades' is the best researched and the most effective, for fat loss and health. I wish more people would give it a decent chance. Thanks for any input you all may have!!!:slywink:

[cmcole]

I believe in his blog he said that on the days they fasted, they took their supplements before or after the fast, but not during.

I would guess (and this is a personal opinion only) that if the supplements were all in pill form that were swallowed, it wouldn't hurt, but who knows? I'm no medical person, so wouldn't know the impact of taking them. I wondered the same thing, though.

[momuvfour]

I have never fasted in my life, I wonder if it really works? I don't think I could get past the headache, and nausea, but who knows maybe I'm wrong

[LisaS]

once you are a fat-burning machine and have your insulin more under control, I don't think you'd get headaches & nausea from just skipping a few meals/fasting a few hours.

[momuvfour]

Probably not, but I'm sure that going more then a 5 or 6 hours would not be good. I get hypoglycemic.

[LisaS]

that's what I mean - once you are fat-burning adapted and your insulin is under control you won't be having hypoglycemic episodes. of course, YMMV.

[joanneb608]

Hi again,

When I have fasted whether it is just one day or more, I really believe it is a mental battle more than anything physical. Also, when I have done it, I was in the fat-burning mode. Actually, I find if I just plan to fast for a day beforehand, it is much easier to carry it through the next day. I have had others (who incidently were overweight with a lot of health problems) claim that it was "unhealthy" and also low-carbing in general was "bad for you." I think a lot of people are just misinformed or have never tried different approaches. But when I have fasted before I actually feel just as good or better than normal. I've never experienced any ill physical or mental effects, either.

Right now I'm just trying to maintain the PP lifestyle again, which actually is pretty easy because the increased protein really keeps any hunger away. I guess the key for me is just getting to the point of hating the way I look and how out of shape I am, and knowing it is taking a toll on my health.:( I wish I could figure out how to turn it on when needed (the willpower!):D I find I fall victim the most to when feeling discouraged with things in life, even though I know it's self destructive to take it out on yourself by stuffing sugar in with abandon. The info here is great and it's rewarding to find so many others who know the PP life plan is the healthiest way to go! Thanks for the input. . .:thumbsup:

[cmcole]

I would say that planning is the key to just about anything.

Someone said, "If you fail to plan . . . you plan to fail."

Set goals; prepare in advance (whether you're fasting, or whether you're following PP). Make sure you know where you are going mentally. Write down your goals, if necessary.

I was absolutely certain I wouldn't make it through Friday without eating until the evening. I just took it in small increments - "I made it this far" and evaluated whether indeed I was hungry, or if it was physological. I am determined that it was mental more than physical. I actually felt better the next day, and was able to go longer between meals without that "I need to eat" feeling (which I think is more mental, based on the clock, than physical hunger).

Now, today, I am not sure I will get away with going all day without food, as my hubby is home, and he was appalled at my Friday's plan.

[Gaelen]

Actually, in the past 18 months I've had to fast five times for medical reasons, and chose to fast 18 times, again for medical reasons. Fasting periods have varied from 24 hours to > 7 days.

I didn't notice any particular benefits, feelings of well-being or empowerment. ;) In my late teens and 20s, I did a fair amount of fasting and abstinence for religious reasons. Again, not many feelings of well-being or empowerment, and approximately zero mystical component.

IMO, once you'e HAD to fast that frequently and that long for medical reasons (either because you physically couldn't eat food or it wasn't permitted at certain times) any potential benefits of fasting are pretty much dispelled in your mind. Choose to fast? Not likely.

[cmcole]

Someone on the blog comments asked this question, and I quote here:

Dr Mike
I just reread your answer to my comment about supplements and realized that it doesn't take into account the mag citrate that I take every night before retiring. Since it's just one mineral and no calories, will it interfere with the fast?
Hi LC--
Don't worry about the mag citrate. It, like most other vitamin and mineral supplements, is non-caloric.
MRE

[peggyjo]

cmcole,

Forgive me if you've stated this elsewhere here and I just missed it or forgot it (mind like a steel sieve these days...), but are you doing the fasting according to the sometimes-day, sometimes-evening schedule the Eadeses tried, or are you just eating at night? I'm just curious how others are approaching this "experiement."

I'm on my third day of this now. I'm sticking to a schedule of eating evenings/night only -- not too strict about anything yet. This seemed easier for me to manage than the off-again/on-again day/night schedule. This allows me to eat normally with my husband every night.

For now, I'm limiting any processed-type carbs to every third day (the first night I had bread). At one point in Dr. Eades' blog entery, he mentioned that sticking to strict low-carb wasn't necessary with this, but I don't want to stray to far from my usual low-carb fare.

So far, I feel fantastic -- like I remembered from my younger days before someone convinced me it wasn't healthy to skip meals. The best thing is how it's affecting my exercise. I have been working out at around 3 p.m. or so, then waiting to start eating at 5. I'm able to do way better in my workouts than when I have eaten during the day before them. I'm also really enjoying the freedom of not thinking about food all the time! (Thinking about it, recording it, shopping for it, preparing it, measuring it, eating it... blah blah -- I end up feeling totally obsessed. This approach gives me freedom from a lot of that.) And I like the convenience.

My biggest concern is not getting enough nutrition. I'm approaching that a little at a time as I think of it. Yesterday I decided it would be a good idea to eat a salad and a few nuts every day first thing when I start eating at 5. I probably need to be mindful of eating *enough* each night. If I feel I'm short of protein for the day, I'll have a "dessert" protein shake.

Too early to tell on a lot of stuff, but so far the improved workouts, freedom from obsession, and convenience have been terrific.

I hope this isn't *way* too off-topic for this board. I'm rationalizing it that can work well with general PP principles, and besides, Dr. Mike started it with his blog! :D

[Gaelen]

Too early to tell on a lot of stuff, but so far the improved workouts, freedom from obsession, and convenience have been terrific.

I hope this isn't *way* too off-topic for this board. I'm rationalizing it that can work well with general PP principles, and besides, Dr. Mike started it with his blog! :D

Peggyjo, while Mike did start the discussion in his blog entry, I think it's really important for people to recognize that he and MaryDan have been low carbing for a *very* long time. Intermittent Fasting might not be the right approach at all for many people, and it's no way to really learn or understand low carb principles.

There's a saying in music...a great musician learns the rules of composition before s/he breaks them. I know that doesn't always apply, but as a musician who's always broken a lot of rules, I became a much better musician once I understood why what I was doing worked (or didn't...) IMO, when people have been eating badly for years, going directly from lousy eating habits and being overweight to intermittent fasting may not be the best plan for their system, nor the best way to better understand why some elements of nutrition are critical and others are crap. Many, many people can't rely on their instincts when it comes to food and when and how to eat, since years of eating badly have completely dulled those instincts. It would help those people tremendously to understand the basics of Protein Power, and try them for awhile, before experimenting with intermittent fasting.

You mention being concerned about eating 'enough.' You might try journaling your food for awhile to find out exactly what you're eating, and if you're getting all of the things that your body needs. The point of IF is painless calorie restriction--not nutrient deprivation. YMMV.

[peggyjo]

...it's no way to really learn or understand low carb principles...

OK -- thanks for confirming what I suspected -- this conversation is really *not* welcome here.

The point of IF is painless calorie restriction

Ummm -- calorie restriction is totally *not* the point, painless or otherwise, as described in detail in Dr. Eades' blog entry.

One thing I have always appreciated about the Drs. Eades is how they have based their work on solid research and have at the same time been open to new pertinent research.

[Gaelen]

Ummm -- calorie restriction is totally *not* the point, painless or otherwise, as described in detail in Dr. Eades' blog entry.

I disagree...while the two (IF and CR) are not necessarily the same thing, Mike's entire personal 'experiment' as described was provoked by intriguing results pointing to increased longevity in calorie-restricted lab animals, and by his curiousity about a less onerous method of achieving equivalent benefits without CR or the deprivation that implies. For those who haven't read the blog entry and 60+ comments, Mike explained that he and Mary Dan tried several IF regimens, including one that tried to duplicate the typical rodent study design--true fasting for 24 hours followed by eating as much of whatever they wanted for 24 hours. They found that experiment unacceptably difficult on the fasting days. Then they tried intermittent fasting, or meal-skipping, and Mike noted the following in his blog:

(from MREades blog entry 9/13/2006) Over the period that we followed the various IF regimens we lost a little weight because, unlike the rodents, we couldn't eat twice as much during the eating days as we would have eaten were we not fasting.

Seems to me that this comment concedes that when they did eat during their IF experiment, there was some level of caloric restriction, unlike rodents on a similar regimen who on an ad libitum feeding schedule on the 'eating' days were able to make up for previous days' fasts. By virtue of typical human sleeping habits, Mike admitted that they were unable to make up caloric intake they'd lost in their previous day's fast. Even most insomniac humans sleep (without eating) for longer periods out of each 24 hours than the average rodent. This human tendency to sleep rather than doze (as rats do) produced, in their experiment, a level of caloric restriction as part of the IF. Since they were sleeping, it was a painless level of caloric restriction that didn't preoccupy their every waking thought as Mike mentioned that true fasting had.

One thing I have always appreciated about the Drs. Eades is how they have based their work on solid research and have at the same time been open to new pertinent research.

Mike also mentions that he and Mary Dan were experimenting with the IF process, and that (from MREades blog entry 9/13/2006) We weren't doing a hard core study; we were simply evaluating IF as a practical means for humans to use to improve their health. He also noted that their experience was temporary-- (from MREades blog entry 9/13/2006) We stuck with the regimen for a few weeks just to see if we could tolerated [sic] it, which we did just fine. We ultimately drifted back to our normal low-carb diet, however, just because it seemed to work better with our schedules.

I think most of the members of this forum appreciate that the Drs. Eades base their work on solid research, and that they are open to new ideas and revise their approaches accordingly. These forums are part of the website they own, and as such, conversations about the things they discuss in their writings, whether books or blogs, are more than welcome here...but even Mike acknowledged that IF needed some tweaking to make it work on a personal level, and that he's curious to hear more results.

[Billie]

I heartily agree with Gaelen. We know, probably better than any other group of people as people with obseity issues, that quick fixes do not work. Mike and Mary Dan, from my readings of his blogs over time, and from the meetings that Gabe has had with both of them, are very cuirious people. The Eadeses I don't think are promoting fasting, they are talking about it, telling you all as readers, keeping you updated, giving means to talk and to be knowledgable.

[cmcole]

Peggyjo, to answer your question to me . . .

Friday, I ate only an evening meal.
Then, my hubby came home that night. He didn't approve of my trying to skip meals, especially since I've been trying to get him NOT to skip meals. So, Sunday would have been my evening meal only day (and, I did stop at the right time Saturday), but I ended up having to eat breakfast with him, and we won't go into the rest of the day, because it was not pretty, and it had only slightly to do with food.

The ugliness continued this morning, so I need to resolve things family-wise before even considering IF. However, I am pretty sure it's not exactly something I want to pursue - I find that I get headaches when I don't eat for extended periods, and I really hate taking pills for self-inflicted ailments.

[peggyjo]

Heh. I'm making some new rules for myself to follow -- don't get involved in discussions of religion, politics, or diet! :D

I urge anyone with any interest in this topic to read all of what Dr. Eades wrote (not just excerpts), read all the comments and his responses to them, and read the original research.

***

cmcole -- Thanks very much for your response. I'm really sorry to hear about your headache... I have awful 3-day headaches from time to time, and they are so much not fun! (Mine also seem to be related to what I'm eating -- either too much carbs or grains or withdrawal from same.) Wishing you the most speedy recovery!

[cmcole]

Peggyjo -

There are so many personalities on discussion boards, and sometimes comments are not easily interpreted from just the written word.

I'm sure that given a small opportunity I can (and possibly already did) offend one or more people in various locations, either here or elsewhere.

It's just part of being a member of the human race, and posting comments about topics. There's always one that will push somebody's buttons.

However, that does not mean you need to cease posting. You will get some people who just will read and agree/disagree, while others will post in response. It's all part of the process.

And, yes, I was absolutely intrigued by what Dr. Eades had to say, and the comments it solicited (apparently the most for one blog entry, ever).

I think I mentioned previously that it's not a schedule that would work for everyone, but I'm considering even just skipping a meal here and there (perhaps lunches when my hubby isn't around to see), and see how that goes. If it doesn't work, I'll have something on standby in my desk (cans of tuna, sardines, etc.).

There is a thread mentioned on another board (Low Carb Forum, I think) in the comments to Dr. Mike's blog, where those who have decided to follow it are posting results and comments. You might want to check that out, as well.