Emotional Eating 101

[Gaelen]

I get the newsletter Scoop from www.dietwatch.com and they've been running an intermittent series by Roger Gould, MD on emotional eating. I won't post the full articles here to preserve Dietwatch's copyright, but I will excerpt them, include the links and then try to attach the files in the Getting Started section.

Emotional Eating 101, Part 1 of 4 (http://www.dietwatch.com/dietwatch/diet/dietnews.asp?show=gould_part1.html)
"...Why don't you just do it? What's getting in your way? Or, if you do succeed in losing a little weight with a diet, why do you usually regain the weight you lost? Why can't you hold onto healthier habits as a way of life? Why do you overeat despite your best intentions?
The answer to all these questions is the same: emotional eating. Most simply defined, emotional eating means you eat to satisfy emotional hunger; it means you use food for comfort or as a way to cope with life; and it means you eat for reasons other than what your body needs.
... Phantom hunger has such power that it drives you to go to almost any lengths to satisfy it. I saw this fact demonstrated in Technicolor when I consulted at the Pritikin Institute in Santa Monica, California, where clients paid ten thousand dollars a month to take part in a controlled diet and exercise program. Although the tuition for the program far exceeded the cost of attending the most expensive private university in America, I frequently found participants sneaking out for hamburgers and french fries at a corner stand. These were all highly motivated people sent to Pritikin by their doctors because of serious, life-threatening health problems, but positive motivation clearly wasn't enough to help them resist phantom hunger."


Emotional Eating 101, part 2 of 4 (http://www.dietwatch.com/dietwatch/diet/dietnews.asp?show=gould_part2.html&AfilliateReferer=lsV4_38)
"... As we all know, dieting is the most common private approach to obesity and it just doesn't work. The last two decades there have been more people dieting and more diet programs yet obesity has increased over 20%. Dieting programs and fads have a 99% relapse rate. Their failures have been proved by many studies. And as we've said, the problem is not so much what you eat, but that you can't control how much you eat. This means that you're addicted to food.
This may sound harsh, but you have all the evidence you need. Do you struggle to control what you eat? Have you been overeating for years? Have you put your health at risk because of your eating habits? Does the idea of giving up food as comfort make you nervous? Have you tried to change your eating habits but failed? If you answered yes to any of these questions, it should be pretty obvious that you are addicted to food.
... The worst part about it is that overeating works. It really is a powerful way to temporarily change the whole state of your mind. If you are anxious, eating can rid you of anxiety. It can give you time to regroup. Some people have described how eating puts them into their own bubble, and makes all the worries go away for a while. Others have described a state of feeling insulated and protected instead of vulnerable and raw. When you are addicted, eating has become a way to silence your mind whenever it presents you with ideas or images you'd rather not deal with. In that sense, it does work; it temporarily banishes uncomfortable thoughts and the feelings associated with them. And when you are addicted to this feeling, you have very little control over how much you eat.
If all this is true, and emotional eating is a sign of food addiction, and if you are really addicted to food, does that mean you have no control over what you eat? That's the interesting dilemma. You always have a choice. It is definitely you who lifts the fork to your mouth or buys the cheeseburger when you just finished telling yourself you were going to watch it and lose some weight. You may make the right choice sometime, but when day after day and year after year you make the decision to overeat (which I define simply as eating much more than you need to stay in caloric balance), you will have to admit that you are acting like a person who is compelled to do something that you have consciously decided not to do. There is no way around this unless you tell me that you want to overeat and you don't want to control your weight.

Note: you may have to sign up to receive Scoop to read the articles in full from the Dietwatch website, although you don't have to sign up to be a member of the website.

[Billie]

I think these are great reads Gaelen, thanks. I am definitely an emotional eater--and have worked hard to wrap my thinking around that one, especially in the last year. These kind of suggetions and knowledge are what make this forum so good, thanks again!

[gitfiddle]

That's a very good description. Thanks Gaelen. I have to say that low-carb eating makes it more manageable. Wish there was a cure!

[laughingW]

Phantom hunger is real hunger, it's just that it's in the brain chemical system not the stomach/fuel system. It's brain receptors that are empty and screaming for a hit.

I wish people would write about it as if it's the true physical hunger it is, and then we could talk about how to fill it properly with: excitement, love, thrills, comfort, risk-taking.

So often (I didn't read this article, sorry), the writer just says to gut it out without talking about a) how to feel better right now and b) how to not get cravings at all later. It is possible.

[gitfiddle]

I've been working on re-training my brain. So far I've been able to get orange spice tea accepted as a stop-gap on certain occasions. I can also identify certain trigger moods and realize that I've had this malady all of my life. I get tired of working with it and I wish somebody would invent a pill.:p

[laughingW]

Carol, there really is a cure. It's interesting that the brain docs do not have pills for low beta-endorphin and dopamine sufferers, as they do for low serotonin. Boy they sure are working on it!

But you can retrain your brain over time by a) stopping the priming and spikes and 2) moving to more gentle raisers of those things. What that does is raise the overall level (without the plunge and withdrawal of peak/valley) and then, the receptors close down some of them since they're not needed any more. And since craving is screaming receptors - fewer receptors means the screaming goes away. No more cravings. It really, really works.

[gitfiddle]

Are you referring to Kathleen DesMaisons method?

[laughingW]

Sort of. It happens after you clean up the food.. There is a whole behavior part then.

[gitfiddle]

Well, I've been working on both aspects for years with some improvement, so I'm interested. Where can I go to find out more? You can PM me if you want to.

[hawk]

I found for me that I need to lower my carbs VERY low. It feel then like I can relax and that a monkey is off my back. I know the feeling. But a few too many carbs brings back the screaming. I also have a list of things to do instead of eat. I made it up and posted it on the fridge. Sometimes excersize stops the screaming. A walk. a hot bath. Lots of water. Tea.
Writing letters (slow mail) Reading a book. Drawing. Sex. Playing music. anything that you love to do.

[Gaelen]

Phantom hunger is real hunger, it's just that it's in the brain chemical system not the stomach/fuel system. It's brain receptors that are empty and screaming for a hit. I wish people would write about it as if it's the true physical hunger it is, and then we could talk about how to fill it properly with: excitement, love, thrills, comfort, risk-taking. So often (I didn't read this article, sorry), the writer just says to gut it out without talking about a) how to feel better right now and b) how to not get cravings at all later. It is possible.

Please read the articles. I'd be interested in your take on them...and they did address methods that go beyond 'gut it out.'

[gitfiddle]

Gaelen, I read both of the articles and find them to be accurate as much as they apply to my situation. I certainly can't speak for anyone else. I've pretty much determined that I'm the anxious/angry trigger with the numb/detached result. I went to OA meetings years ago with great success. Life gets in the way, though, and there are other people on the planet besides me. I finally got a handle on it when I found PP, but life threw me another curve and I'm struggling again. These articles are a great reminder and sort of a reality check. Thank you for posting them and I look forward to the rest of the series.

[Always]

Great articles Gaelen...very thought provoking. I find that at my office, I have no problem eating except what I've brought with me despite the stress. The evil vending machine holds no alure and neither does the plate of donuts in the break room. However, I think that's because I don't over eat in plain view. And after 6 years of LCing, I don't binge on high-carb foods but I occasionally binge on LC foods and then feel guilty because I know I wasn't really hungry.

I come home from my job first and eat dinner and then Michael comes home a couple of hours later and I get his dinner set up. Michael loves dessert and dessert is fine for him as he's tall and skinny with an super active metabolism that needs feeding. I love to bake and I do it mostly for him (yeh right!), but I find myself wanting some of it also and I think it's because I'm irratated that he can eat whatever he wants and never gain weight, but I can't. So I justify a small piece and then maybe a second.

I'm going to re-read the articles and think more about why I eat when I'm not hungry, so thanks for getting me to think a little more. See ya!

[laughingW]

Okay Gaelen I did read them. Thanks for the nudge.

On the plus side: I like how he understands the phenomenon and has clearly treated lots of people. A bit of compassion in there too. And yes, some symptom management of what he calls "emotional eating."

On the minus side: it's like he hasn't read the literature at all! No mention of the physical side of emotional hunger. And worse, he assumes that someone will always be emotionally hungry, or did I read it wrong? He just says, some people have more hunger and they need to build a bridge and get over it.

In contrast - when you see emotional hunger as physical imbalances, as I did, and you HEAL the imbalances, you don't even have it any more.

This guy sounds a little patronizing to me. Is he aware of low serotonin and low dopamine and beta-endorphin root causes, and is dumbing it down, or is he not aware? either way, eek.

My own situation was anxiety/numb and fixing low serotonin took it away. Voila, no need to cope at all!

So I don't know whether to be happy with his acknowldegement and support or be frustrated at the symptom management. It's like a doc who says take statins instead of do PP for health.

[JanetM]

Hi laughingW,

How did you fix the low serotonin? Was it the "Potatoes not Prozak" way? I haven't gotten a hold of that book yet to understand exactly how it works metabolically, but in reading the 7 steps on the website, it seems that for someone already following low carb, the only thing left to do would be to eat the potato each night.

Janet

[Gaelen]

Okay Gaelen I did read them. Thanks for the nudge. On the plus side: I like how he understands the phenomenon and has clearly treated lots of people. A bit of compassion in there too. And yes, some symptom management of what he calls "emotional eating."

On the minus side: it's like he hasn't read the literature at all! No mention of the physical side of emotional hunger. And worse, he assumes that someone will always be emotionally hungry, or did I read it wrong? He just says, some people have more hunger and they need to build a bridge and get over it.

Oh, I'm pretty sure he's read the literature...but I'm also sure that selling his own program is part of why these articles are only giving out X amount of information. ;)

In contrast - when you see emotional hunger as physical imbalances, as I did, and you HEAL the imbalances, you don't even have it any more. This guy sounds a little patronizing to me. Is he aware of low serotonin and low dopamine and beta-endorphin root causes, and is dumbing it down, or is he not aware? either way, eek. My own situation was anxiety/numb and fixing low serotonin took it away. Voila, no need to cope at all! So I don't know whether to be happy with his acknowldegement and support or be frustrated at the symptom management. It's like a doc who says take statins instead of do PP for health.

hmmm...what about the emotional hunger(s) that are emotional, or nearly purely emotional. What if there *aren't* physical imbalances, if the root cause is actual, true, unsatisfied emotional voids and needs? What if it's a combination control issue, a multi-faceted problem? Seems that a wholly-physical approach to those problems with true emotional issues would be as equally unsuccessful as ignoring the potential for physical issues...that it needs to be a balance and that each individual is going to be different.

[laughingW]

Well, I've been working on both aspects for years with some improvement, so I'm interested. Where can I go to find out more? You can PM me if you want to.
You probably already know most of it and are more skilled than you think! no magic bullets. but...

I think the best way to get the latest thinking is to take Dr. DesMaisons' online classes. There is one for each of serotonin, beta-endorphin, and dopamine. Sorry to recommend something that costs money but that's what I would do just to get the info most efficiently.

It's not all summarized in a book yet and there are no online articles except if you read hundreds of posts of people doing it (so time consuming)! or read the articles in the newsletter.

[laughingW]

Hi laughingW,

How did you fix the low serotonin? Was it the "Potatoes not Prozak" way? I haven't gotten a hold of that book yet to understand exactly how it works metabolically, but in reading the 7 steps on the website, it seems that for someone already following low carb, the only thing left to do would be to eat the potato each night.

Janet
Maybe, maybe not. It really depends on how a person does low carb.

In the PnP plan, the potato works as a deliberate, dose-controlled, timed insulin rise to help make tryptophan into serotonin while you sleep. It depends on the whole rest of the day having adequate protein in mixed meals at regular intervals. (so you aren't getting insulin spikes and you do have rest periods from eating). Also with vitamins and omega3 supplements.

So, if a person was doing low carb with random meal times, no carbs at all, lots of sugar alcohols and fake sweets between meals, no supplements, the baseline wouldn't be there and the potato couldn't work the same way. The early steps are a required setup.

I don't do the potato any more by the way, except for occasionally I check it. Once I topped off my level it stays high because I don't do things that "use up" serotonin faster than I can make it. It's a consumable so there's constant building/using going on.

[laughingW]

hmmm...what about the emotional hunger(s) that are emotional, or nearly purely emotional. What if there *aren't* physical imbalances, if the root cause is actual, true, unsatisfied emotional voids and needs? What if it's a combination control issue, a multi-faceted problem? Seems that a wholly-physical approach to those problems with true emotional issues would be as equally unsuccessful as ignoring the potential for physical issues...that it needs to be a balance and that each individual is going to be different.
Ah, good point. I tend to not even think much about actual true unsatisfied emotional needs, because it's so easy to deal with them in comparison with before. Once you've been in biochemical hell regular life seems easy.

For me, the difference is in degree and how handle-able it is. When unbalanced, the emotional reactions are way out of proportion and seem impossible to handle without the food crutch. When balanced, I get appropriate emotional responses to life events.

So, if it's an anxious situation and in the past I would have gone for the comfort carbs - now I know that the emotional hunger is "calmness, comfort" and I reach for a blankie or a kitten. I'm serious so don't laugh.

Or, if it's a roaming, "jonesing for a hit" situation and in the past I would have gone for the endorphin hit from food - now I know that the emotional hunger is "thrill" or "love" and I turn on some Big Music really loud - or do a prank with my friend like we were in junior high - or go dancing and flirt.

I get the feeling from listening to "normies" that they can't understand why we compulsive eaters like food so much better than the "healthy alternatives". In my experience it's because when you're out of whack, candles and baths and exercise just don't cut it compared to a quart of ice cream if you know what I mean. But! after bringing the chemistry back in line, those "healthy alternatives" not only work but they do feel better and I was like, oh so this is why normies always say that!

[JanetM]

Maybe, maybe not. It really depends on how a person does low carb.

Right. I've been doing a strict low-carb diet: just meat and low-glycemic vegetables, with three to four meals a day. So, for me, the potato is the only thing to add.


I don't do the potato any more by the way, except for occasionally I check it. Once I topped off my level it stays high because I don't do things that "use up" serotonin faster than I can make it. It's a consumable so there's constant building/using going on.

Very interesting that you can top off serotonin levels and prevent yourself from using it up. I need to (and will) learn more about this.

I am freaking out a little bit today because last night I actually ate two small yukon potatoes just to see what would happen. I was quite nervous about it because that's quite high-carb for me, and I expected my blood sugar level to plunge. But in fact, I felt okay afterwards, I slept well, my blood sugar was at 92 when I woke up (a little high for me), and today (this is what is freaking me out the most), I feel, in a subtle way, calm . . . and cheerful. :nod: Also I got from breakfast to lunch without needing a snack. I am usually ravenous and lose my concentration within 2 hours of breakfast, which is always meat and a low glycemic vegetable. I'm not sure what's happened to me. Can this happen just from eating a potato (in addition to the baseline eating)? :confused:

Janet

[laughingW]

I am freaking out a little bit today because last night I actually ate two small yukon potatoes just to see what would happen. I was quite nervous about it because that's quite high-carb for me, and I expected my blood sugar level to plunge. But in fact, I felt okay afterwards, I slept well, my blood sugar was at 92 when I woke up (a little high for me), and today (this is what is freaking me out the most), I feel, in a subtle way, calm . . . and cheerful. :nod: Also I got from breakfast to lunch without needing a snack. I am usually ravenous and lose my concentration within 2 hours of breakfast, which is always meat and a low glycemic vegetable. I'm not sure what's happened to me. Can this happen just from eating a potato (in addition to the baseline eating)? :confused:

Janet
yes, that can happen. You got lucky, it sounds like the dose was a good size. did you notice any changes in dreaming? First my sleep came back, then dreams in black and white, then dreams in color.

The subtle calm and cheerful is exactly good serotonin! weird huh!

Losing concentration is also low serotonin (lack of focus and impulse control)

The "ravenous" sounds more like blood sugar. Do you have a big portion of meat, and is there any fat, and how much low-glycemic veggie? It is possible (for me anyway) to have an insulin rise from a LOT of meat without fat or carb/fiber to slow it down and then there will be the midmorning blood sugar "ravenous and loss of concentration."

[JanetM]

yes, that can happen. You got lucky, it sounds like the dose was a good size. did you notice any changes in dreaming? First my sleep came back, then dreams in black and white, then dreams in color.

What I noticed was that I did dream, and then realized that I must not have dreamed (memorably) for a while now.

The subtle calm and cheerful is exactly good serotonin! weird huh!

Very weird. And very nice. I tell you, I'm walking around with that feeling like it's the first day of school, like everything is new and exciting. I notice that people I walk past are smiling and nodding at me, so I must be smiling myself.

Losing concentration is also low serotonin (lack of focus and impulse control)

I am beginning to suspect that many of the symptoms I had attributed to low blood sugar are really the result of low serotonin.

And there is reason to believe that I have low levels of serotonin. My mother was an alchoholic and (I believe) hypoglycemic. I experienced a period of severe malnutrition during my late teens and then (surprise) developed the symptoms of hypoglycemia in my early twenties (but was only borderline on a GTT). I learned to eat small, frequent meals, but it just made the dips smaller and more frequent. I would sometimes binge on ice cream, cookies, etc., in some kind of emotional revelry, which would leave me feeling just terrible (hard to describe). Finally, about 5 years ago, something clicked in me, and suddenly the way I felt after these episodes wasn't worth how it felt to eat the food, and I stopped cold turkey, accepting that I could never eat cake or ice cream or brownies again in my life. Exactly what any addict has to do! A few years later, I learned about low carb, and have been eating low-carb for the past 3 or so years, with much more level blood sugar feelings.

The funny thing is that I have done time course studies on my blood sugar after my typical low-carb meals (testing with the glucose monitor every 10-15 minutes for 4 hours) and my blood sugar readings are textbook classic. They are typically in the low 80s when I wake up in the morning. After a meal they go up to around 120 and then fall back to the low 90s after two hours, and then stay there until the next meal. This has made me wonder if there weren't something else going on.

It's after that two-hour mark that I tend to lose my focus and feel that I need to eat. It's a "head" hunger, rather than a "stomach" hunger, most of the time. If I can't eat, my brain gets fuzzy, I can't seem to hold myself to a task that requires concentration, I have a hard time responding to questions, I feel like I'm speaking down a tunnel to other people. Somedays, it feels like a dense brain fog, like I can't even see clearly. (Does that make any sense?). And it doesn't get better until I eat some meat.

Anyway, I'm wondering now if I've had low serotonin all this time, which I used to "treat" with sweet things, but having gone low-carb, I've unmasked the underlying problem.

The "ravenous" sounds more like blood sugar. Do you have a big portion of meat, and is there any fat, and how much low-glycemic veggie? It is possible (for me anyway) to have an insulin rise from a LOT of meat without fat or carb/fiber to slow it down and then there will be the midmorning blood sugar "ravenous and loss of concentration."

A typical breakfast would be a 4oz chicken sausage link, about 1/2 cup cooked turnip greens, and about a 1/2 tablespoon pat of butter.

I think meat for me too is an insulin stimulant. Until recently, I was eating almost twice my minimum amount (calculated vi the Protein Power method). I've been cutting that down now to closer to my minimum amount.

I'm also somewhat confused about the kinds of hunger I feel and what they mean. I can often be "head" hungry, in that I lose my focus and can't get it back until I eat. Then there is "stomach" hungry, in which my stomach hurts but I can still concentrate, until it gets so bad that it interferes with my focus (or maybe the "head" hunger joins it?). This is is often accompanied by a desperate, screaming need to eat NOW.

Janet

[laughingW]

What I noticed was that I did dream, and then realized that I must not have dreamed (memorably) for a while now.
I had that exact same realization.

I am beginning to suspect that many of the symptoms I had attributed to low blood sugar are really the result of low serotonin.
Sounds like it to me, too. What would it hurt to experiment a bit? That's the nice thing about the food-based serotonin fix - you can play around and not disrupt your "regular programming" much.

And there is reason to believe that I have low levels of serotonin. My mother was an alchoholic and (I believe) hypoglycemic.
whoa nelly. Family history of alcoholism and hypoglycemia is one of the signs of a "sugar sensitive" body as DesMaisons defines it. She had her "aha" experience when she notice that in her counseling practice, the two groups she had - one, men with multiple DUIs, and the other, middle aged fat women with food problems - had the same family histories and ate the same (cra*). And when they changed the food, everything changed.

I experienced a period of severe malnutrition during my late teens and then (surprise) developed the symptoms of hypoglycemia in my early twenties (but was only borderline on a GTT).
Again whoa. Periods like that go through serotonin like a grassfire. you would end up depleted since there was no way to replenish.

The funny thing is that I have done time course studies on my blood sugar ... This has made me wonder if there weren't something else going on.
The thing about the sub-population that is "sugar sensitive" is that we have an extra lively insulin response to carbs - up like the rocket and down like the stick - even though the BS reading doesn't go low enough to be "medically" hypo. Hmmm.

Anyway, I'm wondering now if I've had low serotonin all this time, which I used to "treat" with sweet things, but having gone low-carb, I've unmasked the underlying problem.
DesMaisons is not the only one writing about this. Schwarzbein, Ross, and that PCRM guy ("breaking the food seduction") talk about it a little.

I'm also somewhat confused about the kinds of hunger I feel and what they mean.
One of the hidden benefits of doing DesMaisons' program is that the steps isolate each kind of hunger so you really understand, for you, what is going on. Steps 1-3=blood sugar. 4,5=serotonin. 5,6=beta-endorphin.
When we start out all the sensations are like frogs in a blender. Can't make sense of it and the only way is by experimenting on our own food programs.

Good luck! sounds like you have a cheerful journey of exploration ahead.

[JanetM]

One of the hidden benefits of doing DesMaisons' program is that the steps isolate each kind of hunger so you really understand, for you, what is going on. Steps 1-3=blood sugar. 4,5=serotonin. 5,6=beta-endorphin.

Very interesting. I am going to track down her book(s) today to understand this better.

When we start out all the sensations are like frogs in a blender.

That's the perfect description!

Can't make sense of it and the only way is by experimenting on our own food programs. . . .Good luck! sounds like you have a cheerful journey of exploration ahead.

I am very happy to experiment. I'm very excited now! Thank you for all your advice and explanations! I'm starting to feel that I've finally found the people who speak my "languague."

Janet

[Gaelen]

Ah, good point. I tend to not even think much about actual true unsatisfied emotional needs, because it's so easy to deal with them in comparison with before. Once you've been in biochemical hell regular life seems easy.

Here I'm going to have insert "your mileage may vary." ;)
Some people do own actual, true, unsatisfied emotional needs, and they *teach* themselves to turn to food, or alcohol, or cigarettes, or addictive behaviors to satisfy the needs. Some people DO have to cope with some level of biochemical hell and learn how to manage within it because adding the physical relief mechanisms is not appropriate or possible due to other physical issues. Brain injury and chemo both create biochemical physical hell--but in some cases, treatment can't accommodate physical-only solutions because those solutions would cause additional problems. And the true emotional component of each of those situations exists as well, and can't be ignored either, nor will it be resolved even if the biochemical issues are cleared up. They can create multifocal problems that need multifocal solutions.

For me, the difference is in degree and how handle-able it is. When unbalanced, the emotional reactions are way out of proportion and seem impossible to handle without the food crutch. When balanced, I get appropriate emotional responses to life events.

Which is a cool voyage of self-discovery. However, there are people who do not have solely physical or biochemical reasons to 'need' comfort agents--and controlling the biochemistry alone doesn't help. Those people need additional kinds of therapy that helps them redirect and transform their self-destructive appetites/behaviors.

So, if it's an anxious situation and in the past I would have gone for the comfort carbs - now I know that the emotional hunger is "calmness, comfort" and I reach for a blankie or a kitten. I'm serious so don't laugh.

I'm not laughing...see, didn't even type in a smiley! Seriously, I do think the biochemical mind-body connection needs to be considered whenever the person is receptive to doing the work required. But I also have personal experience with situations when there was no physical reason for the emotional issue, and with situations where the physical reason for the emotional issue couldn't be addressed. In that case, focusing on ways to recognize and go hand-to-hand with the emotional hunger was the method that actually succeeded.

I get the feeling from listening to "normies" that they can't understand why we compulsive eaters like food so much better than the "healthy alternatives". In my experience it's because when you're out of whack, candles and baths and exercise just don't cut it compared to a quart of ice cream if you know what I mean. But! after bringing the chemistry back in line, those "healthy alternatives" not only work but they do feel better and I was like, oh so this is why normies always say that!

It's difficult for anyone to understand the mechanisms of addiction if they've never experienced them, and often the closest 'similar' behavior seems pale in the eyes of someone who has experienced addiction. I once tried to describe compulsiveness as having the worst poison ivy/oak of your life, and having your hands tied so that you couldn't scratch, so that when your hands were released you were compelled to scratch until you drew blood--even though you *knew* that scratching was the worst thing you could do. That still doesn't quite nail it, IMO, but I guess it made the translation to the person I was trying to educate. ;)

In my own situations, I had to relearn how to use and benefit from the healthy alternatives. I felt it was too risky for me to take any of the chemical-modifying compounds after intracerebral hemorrhage, so I took a dietary and mental health approach. But dietary design alone doesn't quite work when chemo wreaks havoc with both your system and your eating, so addressing the emotional health issues was much more difficult. Because that process had to be handled nearly 100% from the emotional health aspect, it took a very long time. Success is something I treasure, but I am also aware that allowing the skills I've built and rebuilt to deteriorate will put me right back into trouble...as eating incorrectly will put someone who has primarily physical imbalances to deal with right back into trouble.

[laughingW]

Gaelen, thank you so much for taking the time to splain this. You helped me realize I had a blind spot about the emotional skills. Because when I was in balance it was like I didn't even need them, and I could not imagine having to work emotional skills only while I was so chemically dis-regulated.

My hat off to you!

And I know what you mean about the constant practice. It's like riding a bike. You have to keep pedaling or the balance goes and you fall right off!

[gitfiddle]

..no magic bullets. but.... Damn!

Seriously, I've read her site extensively, read the posts and the newsletter. I'm leery of the "browns" because they might be a trigger.

On the other hand, I could give it a try, I suppose. I love the idea of the music blasting when I'm crusing for something I can't identify. I have nothing to lose.


Success is something I treasure, but I am also aware that allowing the skills I've built and rebuilt to deteriorate will put me right back into trouble...
Yes, when you've come this far, it's a risk to start "tweaking".

I've been feeling like I'm going to have to change what I'm doing to get past this invisible barrier I'm facing. Maybe I've skipped past something essential on my journey, but since I'm always looking for "the magic bullet" I'm gullible :) . This has been a very interesting conversation.

[laughingW]

Gitfiddle I don't use grains for my "browns" at all any more for trigger and ickiness reasons. I get the good feelings from roots and winter squash in appropriate amounts. I NEVER thought I would explore rutabaga, that's for sure. But now it's good in stir-fries and such.

[gitfiddle]

Oh, good thought! I've been pondering that dilemma all afternoon. Thanks again! I've noticed that sometimes even certain high-protein foods give me a strange feeling. Some types of nuts, especially.

Most of the time my choice of food relieves cravings, but it doesn't give me peace as described above. My equilibrium left me after I had surgery last summer. Does that make any sense? Of course, right after that my job changed, my exercise routine was interrupted, and my weight loss (which had been going great) stalled. I've been blaming it on the job, but I wonder how much the surgery had to do with it... (It was eye surgery; didn't lose any organs or body parts. :) )

[sueo]

I've been on 4 different message boards today and every one of them had a posting about emotional eating!

[gitfiddle]

My favorite subject. When I find out what makes me tick, I'll be so glad. The subject hasn't come up here for a while that I've noticed. Thanks again, Gaelen. And you, LaughingW, for being so into it! I've been needing a refresher.

[Gaelen]

Gitfiddle, it's a subject near to me, too...
I've been working for the last six days on satisfying my need for R&R (by camping at a dog show...because I'm a masochist!) But when I catch up on my reading, I'll be back at this.

As for practicing to get better at this...that's something my counselor never lets me forget. :rolleyes:

[laughingW]

More data on the physical underpinnings in the news today. I of course would advocate research into food-biochem solutions, not another drug intervention (!) but we are at least getting data. For example, this study shows that lean people still have the obese brain pattern if they used to be obese. I wonder if that would still be true if their fat loss program was one that worked on brain chemicals.

---

Overeating: the brain-stomach connection mapped
Last Updated: 2006-10-02 17:00:17 -0400 (Reuters Health)
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Scientists from Brookhaven National Laboratory in Upton, New York have identified brain-stomach connections that motivate the desire to over indulge in food.
Specifically, the research suggests an important role for the hippocampus -- the part of the brain associated with motivation, emotion, and memory formation -- in controlling "emotional eating." The work may one day lead to new ways to prevent or treat obesity (http://www.reutershealth.com/wellconnected/doc53.html).
"This study opens new territory in understanding how the body and brain connect to each other, and how this connection is tied to obesity," said Dr. Gene-Jack Wang in a Brookhaven-issued statement accompanying the study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
"We were able to simulate the process that takes place when the stomach is full and for the first time we could see the pathway from the stomach to the brain that turns 'off' the brain's desire to continue eating," Wang explained.
To look at how the human brain responds to "fullness" cues, the scientists implanted a gastric stimulator in seven obese individuals for one to two years. The investigational device provides low levels of electrical stimulation to the vagus nerve, causing the stomach to expand and send "fullness" messages to the brain. The device has been shown to curb the desire to eat.
The subjects underwent brain scans with the stomach stimulator in the on and off mode. Prior to the scans, the volunteers were injected with a radioactive molecule that would light up on the scan so the researchers could track brain metabolism.
"We found that implantable gastric stimulators induced significant changes in metabolism in brain regions associated with controlling emotions, effectively shutting down these obese subjects' desire to eat," said Wang.
The changes were most pronounced in the hippocampus, where metabolism was 18-percent higher with the stomach stimulator turned on.
The stomach stimulator also sent messages of fullness to brain circuits in the frontal cortex and striatum, brain regions linked to craving and desire for drugs in addicts.
With the gastric stimulator on, the subjects self-reported "emotional eating" scores were 21-percent lower than when the stimulator was off.
"This provides further evidence of the connection between the hippocampus, the emotions, and the desire to eat, and gives us new insight into the mechanisms by which obese people use food to soothe their emotions," Wang said. "This new pathway should be explored in further studies to determine if there are any implications for treating or preventing obesity."
SOURCE: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, October 2, 2006.

[gitfiddle]

I am in awe. Hook me up, Scotty! I wonder where they will go from here. Need I say that it doesn't surprise me in the least?

[Peachy]

I've always loved my brain. Now I find out it is making me fat!! What a traitor. LOL

[gitfiddle]

Think of it as an alien in the wiring. :paranoid:

[laughingW]

Funny interview with DesMaisons on Sally Jesse Raphael's radio show.
Talks a little about healing the brain.
October 4, About 20 minutes into it.

http://www.sallyjr.com/radio.htm (http://www.sallyjr.com/radio.htm)

----

And hey, I think of it as a really adaptable brain. It's the best!

[Gaelen]

Here's the link to Emotional Eating 101, part 3 of 4 (http://www.dietwatch.com/dietwatch/diet/dietnews.asp?show=gould_part3.html&AfilliateReferer=lsV4_40). This section of the article, again focusing on those with a true emotional component and the learned behavior nature of emotional eating, describes "12 Types of Emotional Eating." The article also includes a 4-part question section at the end to help people analyze which 'type(s)' are closest to their own behavior.

"Type 1. Dulling The Pain With The Food Trance.
If you get hungry when you feel angry, depressed, anxious, bored, or lonely, you suffer from Type 1 emotional hunger, and you use food to dull the pain that these emotions cause.

Type 2. Sticks And Stones May Break Your Bones, But Cake Won't Heal What Hurts You.
If you react by getting hungry when others talk down to you, take advantage of you, belittle you or take you for granted, then you suffer from Type 2 emotional hunger. You eat to avoid confrontation.

Type 3. A Full Heart Fills An Empty Belly.
If you crave food when you have tension in your close relationships, you suffer from Type 3 emotional hunger. You eat to avoid feeling the pain of rejection or anger.

Type 4. Hate Yourself, Love Your Munchies.
If you tend to become hypercritical of yourself, if you label yourself "stupid," "lazy," or "a loser," you have Type 4 emotional hunger. You eat to "stuff down" your self-hatred.

Type 5. Secret Desires Have No Calories.
If your hunger gets activated because your intimate relationships don't satisfy some basic need like trust or security, you suffer from Type 5 emotional hunger and you use food to try to fill the gap.

Type 6. Forty Million Big Gulps And The Well Is Still Empty.
If you stuff yourself to make up for the deprivation you experienced as a child, you have Type 6 emotional eating.

Type 7. It's My Pastry, and I'll Eat If I Want To.
If you eat to assert your independence because you don't want anyone telling you what to do, you have Type 7 emotional hunger.

Type 8. I Can't Come To Work Today—I'm Too Fat.
If your appetite kicks in when you're faced with new challenges—if you use food to avoid rising to the test, or to insulate yourself from the fear of failure—you have Type 8 emotional hunger.

Type 9. Aroused by Aromas, Not by the Chef.
If you eat in order to avoid your sexuality—either to stay fat so that nobody desires you or to hide from intimate encounters—you suffer from Type 9 emotional eating.

Type 10. I'll Beat You With this Éclair.
Type 10 emotional eaters stuff themselves to pay back those who have hurt them, often in the distant past. They use their bodies as battlegrounds for working out old resentments.

Type 11. Peter Pan and the Peanut Butter Cookie.
If you eat to make yourself feel carefree, like a child, you have Type 11 emotional hunger. You eat to keep yourself from facing the challenges of growing up.

Type 12. That Stranger In Lycra Wearing Your Face.
If you overeat because you fear getting thin, either consciously or unconsciously, you have Type 12 emotional hunger."

You may need a free membership to www.dietwatch.com to read the full article.

[deirdra]

I don't get the urge to eat emotionally anymore if I avoid sugar, gluten & other foods I am intolerant of (casein, soy, citrus, melon). This has convinced me that there must be a biochemical component to "emotional" eating. The food trance etc. behaviour is like the reaction of drunks to alcohol or addicts to drugs. If I eat intolerant foods I can turn back into an emotional basketcase within hours. If I have not planned ahead on how to deal with stress, anger etc. (with almonds, sardines, tea to go, coffee and cream, cocoa w/stevia stashes in my office & car), I may need a smidgeon of willpower to avoid taking more than a bite of intolerant foods and looking for some tolerant ones. Sometimes I just have to drop everything and go buy a rotisserie chicken and eat as much as it takes to get me over the hump. "Normal" people eat foods they like when they are angry/sad/stressed; the key for me is to not chemically feed a downward spiral, but to instead choose foods I like that lead to an upward spiral.

A year ago I thought depression was an inescapable genetic family trait and "emotional eating" a character flaw. Now I realize they were both caused by food intolerances (including the sugar & starch I originally gave up).

[laughingW]

wahoo dierdra! I think so too.

[Gaelen]

I don't get the urge to eat emotionally anymore if I avoid sugar, gluten & other foods I am intolerant of (casein, soy, citrus, melon). This has convinced me that there must be a biochemical component to "emotional" eating.
<snip>
A year ago I thought depression was an inescapable genetic family trait and "emotional eating" a character flaw. Now I realize they were both caused by food intolerances (including the sugar & starch I originally gave up).

Again, congratulations on figuring out your own personal puzzle. Unfortunately, for some people there *IS* no chemical imbalance, or only a very minor one, or some combination of chemical imbalance + mental health issue, and for some people emotional eating IS to some extent a learned behavior which is not completely addressed from the chemical/bio-physical approach.

For years I taught dog training classes for four+ hours on Tuesday nights, going right from work to pick up the dogs and get myself to another corner of the county to teach/train. There was never time for a decent meal--couldn't eat at my job or while training/teaching, didn't have time to do anything more than grab a snack. By 11 pm I was ravenous, as were the other trainers, and we always all went out for dinner. Of course at 11 pm on a Tuesday night, the dining choices were...limited at best. ;) Bad food habits--but great company and fun and good times, and it went on 45 weeks a year for a dozen years or so.

Then we got a building, and I taught more often and on other nights. But for some reason, Tuesday nights was still late-night-dinners. On the six or seven Tuesday nights a year when I *didn't* go out with friends, I would start to feel hungry later in the evening, even if I'd eaten a satisfying dinner earlier.

Then I stopped teaching because of the stroke. But the oddest thing--on Tuesday nights I would start to get physically hungry about 8:30-9 pm, and it would continue until I ate something...anything, just something. If I fell asleep early, I would wake up from a sound sleep about midnight--hungry. There are no chemical imbalances that are part of this phenomenon (believe me, I am checked and re-checked more often than anyone should have to be...) At first, my counselor thought I might be emotionally missing the conversations and good times with other trainers and friends that I'd gotten used to having on Tuesday nights for two decades--but just calling my friends at that hour didn't resolve the physical hunger either. The emotional habit (good times with friends) that had started from a small physical need had become an ingrained learned behavior. It's taken five *years* to get to a place where I don't routinely feel hunger pangs on Tuesday night--and all it takes to reactivate them is to go out for a late meal once or twice.

I wouldn't call that particular problem a 'character flaw.' ;) But it is/was definitely a destructive food-related emotional eating/learned behavior that no longer had any compelling physical reason. YMMV

[laughingW]

Gaelen did you look at beta-endorphin? That matches the physical symptoms of a dose response.

[Gaelen]

Gaelen did you look at beta-endorphin? That matches the physical symptoms of a dose response.

Yes. Beta-endorphins aren't/weren't the issue or even part of the issue. The late-night eating issue, for me, is NOT, I repeat NOT anything that could be bio-physically isolated--however, it definitely responded to approaching it as a learned behavior/habit with emotional components and to behavior modification.

One thing my counselor uses to separate the true primarily-physical issues from true primarily-emotional/mental issues, or to isolate when something physical may not be the determining behavior trigger, is to carefully analyze whether the "need" is something that can be satisfied adequately in more than one way. And it didn't take him particularly long for him to teach me how to do the same thing, enabling me to function like a more-or-less normal person. ;)

For instance, when I experienced pre-trip/pre-treatment/pre-competition stress and flooding, he had me respond to that in different, measurable ways and record the results. I had a list of things that made me feel better, and I had to try each of them (one at a time) until something worked...with eating something as the last choice. In 100% of stress/flooding situations, things resolved with active meditation (walking mindfully), with shopping (which also incorporated movement) or with focused stationary meditation in a quiet, non-stimulating atmosphere. Moving and shopping both only worked if applied early in the situation, focused meditation was 100% successful at resolving stress-induced flooding whether applied early or if it had progressed to the point where I was just under non-responsive (totally flooded.) If moving or meditating is just as successful or even MORE successful at relieving something as eating, then we don't approach that particular issue with bio-physically aimed solutions. And we don't add chemicals to my already chemically-challenged body, because the chances of mixing things up are too great.

It's not all about endorphin control, although that's a part of it. In people who have brain injury, a critical component is teaching the remaining brain cells to function in new ways for which they were not originally used. Movement and refocusing assist in that teaching in ways that adding additional chemical components, whether through food or herbs or drugs, do not. In fact, attempts to add/adjust using chemical components often leave the person LESS functional than attempts to retrain the brain cells, and require constant adjustment. Retraining brain cells and establishing different habits and isolating and addressing the emotional roots of the problems takes longer, but has a longer-term less-maintenance-required healing profile.

I bet on the long-term solution, and so far, it's working. YMMV.

[laughingW]

Yes, I understand what you're saying Gaelen and don't mean to criticize.

It's just that in my understanding of "biochemical" I do include behaviors that affect brain chemistry, not just substances. So I would consider meditation one of those too. and since it affects biochemistry that's where I was coming from.

So my non-medical-chemical example - when the brain has been trained for a 4 PM visit to the snack machine, the biochemistry dips at that time. And one can give it a boost with the snack (like what worked before) or with some exercise or loud music. All those things will also give a boost and it's working at the biochemical level, or another way to say, emotions have a physical, biochemical component.

And I promise not to butt in on any more talk about emotions without reference to biochemistry.

[Gaelen]

The final installment of Gould's Emotional Eating 101: Part 4 of 4 (http://www.dietwatch.com/dietwatch/diet/dietnews.asp?show=gould_part4.html&AfilliateReferer=lsV4_42) showed up in my inbox today. One thing Gould outlines are the six "failure" strategies that attempt to address the results of emotional eating (weight gain) without addressing the underlying emotional issues, and which are, in his opinion, all doomed to failure:
==excerpted from the article which originally appears in Dietwatch's Scoop e-zine======
Failure Strategy #1: Deprive and Binge
Almost every single diet book and diet plan leads to the deprive-and-binge approach, and so this is the most common strategy. ... when you diet, you deprive yourself of what you really want, applying willpower and discipline to keep yourself away from the fridge. It's a painful and difficult thing to do, and unfortunately, the method doesn't work for long because you really don't want to deprive yourself.

Failure Strategy #2: Binge and Run
This is the approach where you allow yourself to overeat, or try to exist side by side with your addiction, but try to compensate for it with exercise.

Failure Strategy #3: Binge and Purge
The binge and purge cycle of bulimia is a very dangerous strategy, and luckily it is normally viewed as an unhealthy approach to weight management.

Failure Strategy #4: Going Public
I call the fourth failure strategy "Going Public." I've seen many variations of this strategy, including losing weight for a specific event such as an upcoming wedding or family reunion, or making a public declaration that you've started a diet, or buying clothes that fit only if you lose weight, or paying to join a support group that encourages success but rejects you if you fail. There are many other ways to set yourself up to "have to" succeed, all of which lead to failure because the basic emotional eating problem is not addressed. Try as you may, you can't fool your own emotions.

Failure Strategy #5: The Blame Game
Do you curse parental genes for giving you a slow metabolism? ... You might say that the blame game is more of a "failure attitude" than a failure strategy, but here the watchword is "failure."

Failure Strategy #6: Medicate the Hunger, Trick the Metabolism
In our culture, many seek a magic pill to dissolve cellulite, reverse weight gain, and make getting thin a breeze. This search constitutes the sixth and final failure strategy.

All the pharmaceutical companies are looking for the big blockbuster solution that will control the hunger gland. The last "miracle pill" released on the market, Phen-Phen, ended up killing people, but the drug companies haven't given up since the American public would much rather take pills that kill hunger than address the emotional source of the compulsion to overeat.
============================================

Interesting stuff, to say the least. I don't buy into Gould's program, but I do agree with one of the last points in his article. For many people, whether there are physical bases for their emotional hungers or whether the bases are primarily emotional issues,
"If you want to control you weight for a lifetime, you do have to attack and dismantle the emotional eating habit. There is no way around this. To break the addiction to food, you will have to go through a healing process. You will have to face down each of your sources of emotional hunger and find a way, through decisions and actions, to deal with the underlying life issues without using food to cover them up. It's not enough to simply recognize these sources. You will have to do something about them to put them to rest. You will have to include them in your conscious problem-solving mind, not stuff them down with food."