Exercise Goals [Archive] - Protein Power Forums

Mitra

03-18-2006, 04:10 PM

Gabe, I was just reading your response on the endurance thread:

I find that when talking about exercise, it's important to clearly define what is the main goal.

Ok, let's say that it's for weight loss, which in reality means (or should mean) for fat loss. If we carry excess fat around, then what we want is to make the body use the fat in store. Both, what we eat and how we exercise must work towards that objective, make the body use what it already has in store while preserving whatever muscle we have. Hence a phrase I used to say in the old board: I exercise so my body performs optimally with what I eat, and don't eat so my body performs optimally in the gym.

The response you gave there assumed that the main goal of exercise would be to burn excess body fat.

Once we've reached a healthy level of body fat, then presumably we have other aims in exercising (or we don't need to bother any more ;) - but I'm sure you and Shadow will tell me that's not the answer :mad:) I'm asking here about exercising to improve general health and fitness, not to look like a body-builder or a supermodel, or to be able to do more reps at higher weights, or run races etc.

In Slow Burn, the Eadeses & Fredrick Hahn define exercise as an activity that must:

make you stronger;
improve your cardiovascular system;
help you lose excess body fat;
improve your endurance;
improve your flexibility;
build you up by preserving or increasing your bone density or muscle mass.I just wondered whether, looking at this situation where fat burning isn't the main goal, you would have any different advice on how to make achieve those aims, given a low/controlled carb intake? Would you, like SB, stick with resistance exercise? Would you mix in other types? And would you need to make any changes in your diet because of the exercise? (Apart from increasing your minimum protein level.)

Gabriel Guzman

03-18-2006, 06:18 PM

Gabe, I was just reading your response on the endurance thread:

The response you gave there assumed that the main goal of exercise would be to burn excess body fat.

Once we've reached a healthy level of body fat, then presumably we have other aims in exercising (or we don't need to bother any more ;) - but I'm sure you and Shadow will tell me that's not the answer :mad:) I'm asking here about exercising to improve general health and fitness, not to look like a body-builder or a supermodel, or to be able to do more reps at higher weights, or run races etc.

In Slow Burn, the Eadeses & Fredrick Hahn define exercise as an activity that must:

make you stronger;
improve your cardiovascular system;
help you lose excess body fat;
improve your endurance;
improve your flexibility;
build you up by preserving or increasing your bone density or muscle mass.I just wondered whether, looking at this situation where fat burning isn't the main goal, you would have any different advice on how to make achieve those aims, given a low/controlled carb intake? Would you, like SB, stick with resistance exercise? Would you mix in other types? And would you need to make any changes in your diet because of the exercise? (Apart from increasing your minimum protein level.)

Losing body fat is only one aspect in which resistance exercise helps, especially if it's done under circumstances that are more favorable for fat utilization. However, after that goal is reach, then resistance exercise is the best way to preserve lean body mass and bone density. Personally, the only change I would do is the way in which I would exercise. When losing fat is not longer the aim, strength can become a focus, which involes a change in the style of doing resistance. Of course at this point, it is likely that we are better able to handle more carbs should we get more into heavier loads.

Mitra

03-19-2006, 03:14 AM

Gabriel Guzman

03-19-2006, 06:19 PM

Thank you, Gabe. Although I know a lot about yoga, I know remarkably little about any other sort of exercise, and as I prefer to do my exercise at home, so don't meet other people while I'm doing it, I really appreciate being able to come here for information.

How would the style of doing resistance change when losing fat is no longer the aim?

Well, for fat loss we normally focus on doing resistance more more 'aerobically'; that is moving quickly from one set to the next without long rest periods between them. The Eades would call this 'working to increase power'. When fat loss is not the issue, then we can work to increase strength instead, which means slower movements and relatively more resting time between sets. This means that carbohydrates may be needed more than fat to produce energy and I know that sometimes the idea of increasing carbohydrates is scary for some people. However, maintenance levels of carbohydrate should be just fine. In the past, I used to alternate workouts focused on strength (around 3 weeks) with workouts focused on power (a week or two) to add variety but my carbohydrate intake was within maintenance level.

Is important to note that resistance exercise also has the benefit of increasing the efficiency in which carbohydrates are used. That is important because once we start doing resistance, we need to re-estimate our lean body mass from time to time because it does change and our protein intake should also change accordingly. Since one of the practical definitions of maintenance, regarding carbohydrate intake, is that one can increase carbs to the same level of protein or a bit higher, then carbohydrates can be added if needed.

Alternatively, engaging in 'slow burning' is also a way to introduce ourselves to resistance. The advantages I see with Slow Burn, is that it is safe and one has to focus on maintaining perfect form during the exercises, thus reducing the risk of injury. One of the keys of resistance exercise is to understand that muscles adapt, and the more consistent we are with our workouts, the fasterst they adapt (that is a good thing because our general fitness also improves), but then we need to 'kick it up a notch' (literally!) to always have enough intensity to encourage the muscles to work. So, alternating traditional resistance exercise sessions with Slow Burn (of course, not in the same week!), keeps our muslces away from adapting too quickly and always improving. I would say that Slow Burn, in particular, works both ways to help in fat loss and/or help in strength building if fat loss is not an issue. After all, the energy demand after an intense workout is not significant during the workout but becomes more important afterwards during the rest and repair time. As noted in another thread, muscle protein synthesis (for repair and re-build) is energetically costly so after the worktout, if there is fat in stores that can be used to supply energy. If fat is not in excess, then diet provides what's needed. Either way is a win-win situation.

Whatever the style we choose, committment to perfect form is a must because it really keeps us away from injury. So, if we've never done resistance before, always start slow and focus on learning the perfect form, the perfect way to complete the movements and then start adding more intensity to the exercises.

I don't know about Yoga but I suspect it's the same. I know it's the same with Tai Chi. I think I must have seem very slow in learning the movements and I would spend time at home practicing them with great detail. After a while, however, it was easier for me to complete a whole set of movments that seem just right from the beginning. I attribute that to committing myself to learn the perfect form before and then enjoying the rest of the movements.

Mitra

03-20-2006, 03:33 AM

Gabriel Guzman

03-20-2006, 09:34 AM

Thank you again. I might look into some other resistance work. I do have some hand-weights that are too heavy for me to use for Slow Burn (though they're not very heavy - I'm just not very strong!), but they might work for other resistance exercises.

Have you tried Power Bands? They come in different resistance levels and the exercises are quite easy to learn. Perhaps is a good alternative to introduce yourself to that kind of exercise using your own body as resistance.

Mitra

03-20-2006, 09:40 AM

I already have a resistance band, though I haven't used it much. Thank you for the reminder. With my ankle weights (2.5, 2x1 and 0.5kg) and the hand weights (that can go up to about 12 kg for each hand) I should be able to keep myself occupied for a while.

hawk

03-20-2006, 05:42 PM

Mitra

03-21-2006, 03:57 AM

Lynn, I'm sure you're right that weight training is going to be a big help to you - but it might take a bit of tweaking to find the right level of exercise, and the right amount to eat while you're doing it. As Gabe said in another thread, if you eat enough fat to provide all the energy for your exercise, your body has no need to draw on reserves, but I think you've been losing weight quite fast. If you've been losing more than a couple of pounds a week, then I think you could safely add a little more fat. Especially since it's likely that you've added some muscle, so you could have lost even more fat than you think. Have you done one of the Lean Body Mass calculations recently? Or do they offer that assessment at your YMCA? I think it would give you a better indication of your progress than just your weight.

Gabe will be able to give you a much more detailed reply, I'm sure. Don't despair, you will get there!

hawk

03-21-2006, 10:57 AM

Hi Mitra. I had my body fat tested with calipers by an experienced person last fall at the YMCA. I tested 29.5. %. I had it retested after I had done aerobics and weight training for about three months and it is 25%. I have another % to go before I am considered in the fitness level(24%) .That still seems high to me. I lost three inches in my belly and plan on losing alot more. My blood pressure got alot better and I was able to get off meds. It still is not in an optimal range. I know it will take alot of work and I dont mind doing it. It really threw me when I became so exhausted.
5 years ago, I was not overweight. My resting pulse was 60 and my blood pressure was 120/68. Then I fractured my leg,aquired RSD. Gained 35/40 pounds and suddenly had bloodpressure issues. The meds made me gain 30 pounds in one month. I was swimming 80 laps in a pool a day and still gained like that. ( I could not walk) I even bought a cast cover that vacumes the air out of the cast and you can scuba dive with the cast on.It is as heavy as a pool liner. I still have it and lend it out to the gymnast girls in my church who are always injured.
My then doctor took blood tests and my cholesterol was 203. He put me on a low fat diet and I gained even more and it was all around my stomach.My blood pressure began to fluctuate.I became allergic to everything.
My parents told me about PP after my dad had a stroke and mom was frustrated with doctors and decided to take matters into her own hands.She began to research and found it was working and helped my dad alot. His blood sugar went from 400 to 87. She saved his life.
My doctor was against it. My husbands freind is a doctor and he supports PP. He sent me for yeast testing and I had an overgrowth of yeast from the low fat diet and antibiotics from myprevious doctor.
I just want to get back to where I was and be able to play soft ball and run up sand dunes not worry about health issues. I don't want my doctor down my throat.My immediate family are all involed in martial arts. I love to kick box. I will not do jujitsu with blood pressure issues. It's too isometric. I can't do it without alot of straining and holding my breath yet.
I weighed between 135/140 before I fractured my leg. Thats 22/27pounds from where I am at now. I can still grab a handful of my stomach when I sit down. My legs don't have enough body fat on them to caliper them . It's like a mamogram.ouch!
My doctor admits to absolutely no nutrition training. He uses some "Insulin" reducing diet book. He thinks Pp restricts too many food groups but he supports what I do and does not give me antibiotics. He just wants me to be perfect on it and see the numbers go down.The meds gave me so many side effects and I think they are dangerous. So if I'm off my meds. He says I have to work hard to get those numbers down. I am.
I don't smoke or drink and my life right now is not stressfull. My husband is a joy to me. The only reason for high blood pressure is needing to lose weight.

PS> The tiredness I felt lasted all day. I woke up with it. Sleep did not help. I finially did add carbs for a couple days. I felt that what I did was not right but I did not know what to do and did not want to stop working out.

Mitra

03-21-2006, 11:30 AM

I think the BF% figures and your size are probably going to give you a better guide than aiming for the weight that you were at a few years ago if you're doing more exercise now than then. It's likely that you've built extra muscle, so you might well weigh more even after you've lost excess fat.

The Eades say that a healthy body fat range for women aged 41 to 50 is 22-28%, and for women aged 51-60 it's 22-30%. As you're right in the middle of that range, I'd be surprised if your blood pressure problems are caused by excess fat. (I'm not telling you that you shouldn't work to reduce your fat further if you want to - it's like the exercise, it depends on your personal goals.) There are several examples in the books, and some people on the board who have been at a healthy weight, but still need to be very strict about their diets to control other things - like blood sugar levels, or blood chemistry.

From what you said about the fat on your middle and on your legs, it sounds as if it's not so much the amount of fat as the distribution, that's a problem for you. Wow, if I had the answer to offer all peri/menopausal women a way to redistribute the fat back where it used to be, I could be rich and famous (and a lot more relaxed about what's going to happen to my body in the next 10 years)!

Because of your various allergic reactions, I wonder if you'd be one of those people - you might need to keep your diet towards the purist end, and the carbs tightly controlled because of blood pressure and the rest. There's a story about a woman in PP (p343 in my copy, towards the end of the Deadly Diseases of Civilization chapter) who was 5'6", 112 lb, and had high blood pressure - that was caused by insulin-related metabolic issues, even though she wasn't overweight. What I'm trying to say is that as you said, it doesn't sound as if your blood pressure is raised because of stress or life-style, and it might well be affected by dietary/metabolic issues, but it doesn't necessarily mean that just reducing your body fat will cure it.

I don't feel as if I'm expressing myself very clearly here. I wish I knew the answers, and could wave that magic wand to fix all your health problems - but a few guesses and a cyber-hug are all I have to offer, I'm afraid.

Gabriel Guzman

03-21-2006, 12:28 PM

Thank you Mitra for asking Gabe all the questions that have been revolving around in my head.
Gabe, I'm still struggling with why I got so tired. I thought I was eating enough fat. I was not losing weight before I began resistance training, when I was doing mostly treadmill,and bike. I think I was eating too many calories. I'm not sure how much to eat . How much fat to eat , or anything. I felt alright before I began to lift more seriously but I have too much body fat around my waist line and lifting weights has begun to reduce that along with the treadmill and bike.

Let's stop here for a second. There are many ideas here that we need to break down:

"..I'm still struggling with why I got so tired. I thought I was eating enough fat."

I'm assuming you are talking about tire after your workout or do you mean tired all day long? I'm sure you're heard of what some like to refer as glycogen depletion as the reason why people feel they can't complete their workout sessions, therefore, they need to make more glycogen (through eating more carbs) so they can meet their exercise goals. That may be so but your aim, as I understanding is to encourage the body to tap into fat stores, thus there may be that the way your train needs to accomodate that concept.

The production of energy from using fat is not nearly as fast as when it's produced from carbohydrate. However, the amount of energy produce from fat usage lasts longer. Thus, the workouts aim to encourage more fat usage can't depend on very heavy loads. Again, what's heavy for you may not be heavy enough for me, or viceversa, due to our own fitness differences. As I wrote in another thread, for fat loss resistance works best if done aerobically and that translates colloquially into 'little less weight, just enough to provided resistance to the muscles, but faster pace' The muscles will first draw from their glycogen reserves, which won't last long, and then start to switch to using fat. On a carbohyrate restricted plan, there is not enough carbohydrate to keep muscle glycogen reserves very abundant so it's likely that lifting heavier weights will deplete them very fast. Once that happens, we feel we just can't do it any more. In fact we can, but not with the same load.

So, eating enough fat may not have anything to do with feeling less tired if we are talking about feeling tired during your workout or immediately after and not all day long. If you're feeling tired all day long, you might want to take a break and check your electrolyte levels just to make sure you're not going through potassium and/or magnesium deficiencies.

Regarding what to eat, maybe it's time to go back to basics, the very basics of Protein Power that we all know; set the level of carbohdyrates you want to be on, estimate and make sure you have adequate protein intake according to your lean body mass and your level of physical activity (don't underestimate this, especially since you work out regularly) and really, even though sounds difficult, don't worry about how much fat. Choose the right kinds of it and let your protein sources bring the own amount of fat.

You already said how good you felt when you started to lift weights seriously. I always prefer to understand that as in 'regularly', 'committed', and not necessarily equate it with 'lot of weight'. You already experienced the changes in your body weight and your waist line and your overall body fat percentage. So you know it works! It's hard to find another, better reason.

I am working on form and doing my weights probably more slowly than most people with 12 reps and 4 sets with maybe a minute between sets and none between the last set when I switch to another excersize that works the same muscle in a different way.

By doing our movements slowly at first we learn how to achieve perfect form. Some people also talk about achieving some kind of 'brain-muscle' connection so you can almost visualize the muscle or muscles you're targetting. In fact, that doesn't sound too weird. When I was studying music (organ), my teacher made me practice really fast pieces at the slowest speed I could. At first it sounded ridiculous for me but what was happening is that by going over the keyboard with the right digitation (that is the right finger on the right key) my brain kind of 'fixed' that position. When I gradually increased the speed to reach the actual speed in which the piece was intended to be played, the amount of errors was very minimal. So, when we are learning the perfect form of the movements, slowly seems to work really well. Once that is accomplished, then we can start adding weight to find the level of resistance that makes us exhaust the muscle by the end of the set.

Here is where there are a lot of ways to do that, one of them being the estimation of our 1 repetition maximum (or 1RM), which as we discussed in another thread, is the maximum weight we can lift with perfect form for a specific exercise. Once we have that number, a good rule of thumb would be that lifting ~50%-60% of that while doing more repetitions (~10-15) with perfect form brings about a more aerobic way of doing resistance. The other component is the resting time between sets and to keep the workout in the aerobic side, then resting periods between sets are best kept around 30 seconds. That's hard to do if we lift close to our 1RM.

I began with very light weights Only three days a week. Upper on Monday,lower Wednesday,Upper Fiday, the next week Lower on Monday, upper on Wednesday and lower on Friday. I just don't see how I am doing too much.The weights take a total of 45 minutes and 20 minutes cardio. The cardio days between are 20-50 minutes. I do not work out on Sunday.
I am happy for any help you might give me. I don't always understand what you say so you may have to spell it out in simpler terms for me. I am really trying.

My goals are . 1)lower blood pressure which is borderline now,
2)fat loss.. my dad had his first stroke at age 47 and is type II diabetic with blood pressure issues. He has been on PP for 5 or 6 years.
3) my family also has big osteoporosis issues. so weight training will be something I will stay with forever.
4) I am hyperactive and working out seems to make me feel better and more focused with the rest of my life. I need the discipline. 5) I'm sick of what I look like and feel like and want to be more physically fit

I don't think you're doing 'too much'. I think you have a very varied workout routine, which is excellent to keep us enthusiastic about it. You might want to try the very basic advice on exercise that the Eades first wrote in Protein Power (Ed. 1996). That's actually how I started when I knew nothing about light weights or machines or anything for that matter. I started using machines because I thought it would be safer while I was learning how to do it but I did exactly what they wrote. After that, I learned to use free weights with a friend that was a bodybuilder and I owe to him to have learn the perfect form with the majority of exercises.

If you don't have Protein Power (Ed. 1996), this are the guidelines in a nutshell:

From Protein Power (Ed. 1996)

Start with light weights first and work up slowly.
Work your biggest muscles first -thighs, shoulders, buttocks, and chest- because you get bigger lean mass gains quicker.
Use perfect form during the exercise -if you have to twist and arch your back to lift a weight, it's too heavy. Lighten it.
As you increase the frequency or intensity of your workouts, don't forget to recalculate your protein requirements. (I can't stress this one enough!)
Always work on an empty stomach (I know this is not for everyone but what it means is also not to work immediately after eating)
Perform all exercises slowly and perfectly, then build speed -don't incrase weight until you can smoothly, quickly and perfectly perform the exercise at the current weight. This builds power and density of the muscle, not just strength.
Work aerobically during your weight training by moving quickly from one set to the next without long rest periods between.
Don't begin to exercise until you've been on your new nutritional regimen for at least a week. First set the stage and get stable nutritionally, then take off with your workouts.

You may already gone through some of these guidelines so now it's just probably a matter of going back to basics regarding the way you lift your weights.

Here is a suggestion on a routine that mixes heavier lifts first and then ligher ones for the rest of the resistance session, followed by 20 minutes of any 'cardio' you prefer. I'm not going to use 20 minutes of 'aerobics' because your resistance session will also be on the aerobic side of things. The complete session should take around 60 minutes and if time is a bit of a problem, cut the cardio part in half. This routine targets one muscle per session using like you do, three different execises for the same muscles.

Start your session with a general warmout (~ 5 minues) on a bicycle or just calistennics on an exercise mat.

Work your abs a little (~10 minutes). Contrary to what some people think, you don't have to kill your abs during this time. Think of it also as a warmup for your abs as well. Soon you'll notice that instead of doing the X number you started with, you do twice as many during the same time. There is a way to workout abs using a cable machine. You get down on your kneeds with and lean over, crunching, with a bar behind your back (not on your neck) and enough weight to make you work your way down. Alternatively, the way I do these is using the "Y" rope, keepign your hands above your ears and then crunch over pulling the "Y" rope.

Start your resistace by doing a couple of sets of warmup for the first exercise. This exercise is to be done with heavier weights (~70% of your 1RM), hence the importance of a really good warm-up to avoid injury. The warmup is usually with ligher weights, just to get the muscles and joints moving. For example if you choose bench press using a barbell, use just the bar for the warm-up;two or three of 10 reps each. Whatever the exercise you choose, choose one that you feel very comfortable and confident using ~70% of your 1RM. Now, perform 2 'heavy' (~70% 1RM) sets of 3-6 repetitions with no more than a minute of rest between them. Come down in weight to 50-60% of your 1RM and then do 2 more 'light' sets of 12-15 reps, resting around half a minute between them.

Now change to another exercise for the same muscle group and do only 2 light sets of 8-15 reps and finish with the third exercise in this same way. No additional warm-up is required for these two other exercises.

Use the time to get from the weights to your cardio machine of choice as resting time and then do 10-20 minutes of cardio. Include a couple of minutes of 'cool-down' time during your cardio exercise.

Finish the session with some stretching (~5 min).

The idea behind this routine is that the first 'heavier' sets will encourage growth hormone release, which in turn sets in motion the release of another powerful hormone (insulin-like growth hormone-1, IGF-1) that will drive muscle repair and growth afterwards. The second two 'flush' sets kind of 'engorge' muscle cells with fresh blood for a pumping effect, which also increase capillary density around the muscle fibers. The first two heavier sets also help in using up glycogen so the budy gets the signal to switch to an alternative fuel source.

One of the reasons I like this kind of routine is that it includes different ways of exercising (resistance and 'cardio'), which makes a workout session more entertaining, which in turn helps to keep up the enthusiasm. I hope this helped a bit.

hawk

03-21-2006, 12:53 PM

Gabe,Thanks for the long answer. I appreciate you taking the time.
The tiredness I was feeling lasted all day. I woke up with it. I dragged around. I have never felt that way before.
When I say seriously lifting weights I mean consistantly and with a purpose. Not just hit and miss. I pay attention to correct form and visualize each muscle I'm working out. I keep a journal and write down how much weight I use for each excersize.
I finially added a few more carbs. Fruit.:mad: I didn't want to and don't want to screw up my goals, which the most important are the blood pressure issue. I got no answers from the YMCA people, and then your board came on line. :p
I feel like I'm grabbing onto your ankle and you are dragging me around with you until I get the answer.:D
Believe me, It is not going on deaf ears. I plan on taking all the advise you give. I hope I'm not driving you crazy.
Thanks so much,
Lynn

Mitra

03-21-2006, 03:56 PM

For some reason, I am feeling enthusiastic about exercise this evening, so I dug my resistance band out and had a play with it. But what I've decided to try for my exercise routine is adding some heavier duty resistance into my yoga practice - more push-ups, caturanga dandasana (http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/469_1.cfm#), one-legged squats &c. And the one where your body's in an inclined straight line, facing up, supported by your hands on the floor behind you - plank? Actually, even standing on one leg and holding the other straight out in front for a couple of slow breaths is pretty hard for me at the moment! I find with things like heel raising, that not touching a wall for balance makes it harder work, so I'm going to work up to doing it on one foot without any support.

Shadow's lunges sound pretty much like Warrior poses (probably why she likes them ;)), and would fit in quite easily (assuming I can still stand after this lot :rolleyes:).

In my playing I did a few push-ups, and I can definitely do them much better than I used to be able to - which was not at all ;). I can't do very many, but with so many years of yoga training, the ones I do are slow and very accurate!

Lying leg raises, superman are already regulars.

Any more ideas? Pretty much anything that's using bodyweight for resistance can probably be incorporated - though not all on the same day :).

LisaS

03-21-2006, 05:31 PM

don't forget working up to those 3 min L-sits ;)

hawk

03-22-2006, 12:32 AM

Gabe and Mitra, I printed out this whole thread. I'm not sure how to save it so I printed it so I wouldn't lose it. I am going to try the weight routine tomorrow when I get to the gym. Understanding the why makes it easier to do. I'm still snorking , but my throat is ok now.

Mitra

03-22-2006, 02:27 AM

don't forget working up to those 3 min L-sits ;)
:D First I have to work up to getting into an L-sit :rolleyes:. Actually, there was one of the positions I could just about get into, but I can't remember which one it was! There was a V-sit as well, wasn't there? And something else?

I'm thinking of doing one of these more challenging yoga sessions on Sunday and Thursday, with Slow Burn on Tuesday. Lighter yoga sessions in between, and rest days on Friday and Saturday.

Lynn, a good way to save a thread is to use the "archive" of this board (the link to it is at the bottom right hand corner of each page). If you find the thread you want in the archive, it has all the pictures, and the bits that you don't really want to save already stripped out. Go to the thread you want (it's arranged the same way as the main board) then click on "file" on the top left of your browser, choose "save" or "save as" and you can save it on your computer.

Or you can use the "thread tools" link at the top of the thread, choose "show printable version" and then save it the same way (for a long thread, like this one, you need to go the bottom of the printable version and click the option to show all the posts on one page).

In the "save" dialog box, you can choose a name for the file (or leave it the same as the thread title) and the file type. You can either leave the file type as it is (html - the usual for web-pages) or change it to txt (a text file), which is what I do.

Shadow

03-22-2006, 10:13 AM

Janet - Sounds like you've come up with a lot of options already! Supine planks are part of tomorrow's workout - so I'll be sure to think of you when I'm suffering ;). I like doing the Warrior too - imagine that :D! When you run out of things to try and challenge yourself let us know and we'll find lots of ways to torture you :p!