Encountering Opposition to Veggie Low Carb [Archive]

Mitra

03-21-2006, 04:48 AM

I haven't been veggie and low carb, so I haven't encountered that part of the oppositions. And my veggie friends are quite polite when I tell them that I now eat meat, but some have looked a little shocked.

I didn't stay veggie when I decided that I needed to eat low carb, because I don't like eggs very much, I don't like tofu or soybeans, and I didn't want to go from eating "real food" to living on the industrial soy-based meat imitations. For a while I ate quite a lot of quorn, but then one day I just couldn't face it any more. It was just too hard for me to get my protein in while eating food that I enjoyed. So these days I eat meat and fish too. But I'm still willing to explore the options with anybody who wants to eat veggie and low-carb.

If you just want to reduce the amount of meat you eat, I think you can reduce it a long, long way. Just using some bone-based stock or a little bit of meat to complement the incomplete proteins in beans, say, has a lot less carbs than the beans and rice or wheat combination, and a lot less meat than getting all your protein from animal food. Once my husband has finished his weight loss, I suspect we'll do that quite a lot. I've loved eating meat - more than I ever did before I became a veggie, but my husband would really like to get back to being more veggie (he enjoys the taste of meat, but feels guilty about it). At the moment he's usually veggie for breakfast and lunch, but not for dinner.

Gaelen

03-21-2006, 08:29 AM

Dave, I'd also like to add my welcome. ;)
I was meatless for a long time (25+ years) before low carbing, but unlike a lot of modern vegetarians, I stopped eating meat for economic reasons (broke college student.) Because my religious foundation considers fish meatless, I always included some level of fish in my diet. I guess in current terms, that's considered pesco-vegetarian, but in the 70s it was just called 'meatless' and we went from there. ;)

Is there opposition from meat eaters to low carbing as a vegetarian?
Sure--it's part of the reason that this forum was created on the Eadeses' original board, and why it's been continued here--because there IS a need for information and community support for vegetarian low carbers that goes beyond recipes.

Is there opposition among vegetarians to low carbing?
Well, I haven't seen so much of that, but I tend to stay in places where I feel most welcome and walk away from places where I feel like I have to watch my back or my words all the time. So hey, man, you just need to find a nicer, cooler, more self-secure group of folks to hang with. ;) Seriously, in my experience, in a group of people that understands that dietary diversity isn't automatically equal to dietary blasphemy, there's room for both meat eating and meatless and even vegan low carbers.

As for myself, when I first started low carbing I was still mainly meatless--you don't eat meat for 25 or more years, you kind of get out of the habit. I'm a really good cook, but I have to really think when I cook meat; it's not something I'm in the habit of cooking every day. Dal, palek paneer, eggplant rolletini, I can make with my eyes closed (and probably have.) So even though I can now afford meat, the prices still give me pause. OTOH, I'll pay $3 for a quart of organic kefir without batting an eyelash...strange how we prioritize things, isn't it?

When people told me eating vegetarian AND low carb couldn't be done, I pointed out that at least two-thirds of my meals weren't just meatless, they were vegetarian. Most of the rest of them were meatless (including fish) and only rarely, maybe once or twice a week, did I have a piece of poultry or game or pork or beef. I even posted a month of daily meatless menus to show people it could be done. I don't really use manufactured meats unless I'm trying to test them in a recipe, and I do use tofu, soybeans, soy tempeh and occasionally soymilk. So it not only can be done in theory, but I do it in practice, and I personally just feel better when I do.

You should know that after four years of low carbing, and a lot of cooking, I'm a little more confident with my meat prep skills and I've got a few meat recipes in my repertoire. And when you're on chemo, you sometimes have to give yourself mental permission to eat whatever looks good, so yes, nowadays I probably only am meatless for about half of my meals instead of for 75% of them or more. But I've had a great time figuring out how to get adequate protein into my vegetarian ethnic favorities without relying on manufactured meats, and how to do this 24/7 without feeling deprived. It's a challenge, but it's been a lot of fun.

Welcome in!

LC_Dave

03-21-2006, 05:12 PM

Thanks for the welcome ShrreyJ, Mitra & Gaelen.

My first step is to read the Protein Power Book, as the only books I have read are Dr Atkins NDR, and Neanderthin.

I egg a bit of eggs, and I often think that this WOL could be vegetarian really easy.

I suppose Diversity of meals is the key, and also supply of great vegetables.

mcsblues

03-21-2006, 11:05 PM

LC_Dave

03-22-2006, 12:54 AM

Hey Dave, fancy seeing you here!;)

I would be interested in where you have encountered any opposition to vegitarian forms of low carb from other low carbers. Yes you might get a debate if you say you are not eating meat for health reasons, but if your motivation is ethical or religious, I have seen nothing but support.

Anthony Colpo's latest newsletter is a case in point. Anthony is certainly in favour of eating meat as a healthy part of a low carb lifestyle, and will have interesting arguments with those that suggest otherwise, but you will note he bends over backwards to help someone who chooses to avoid animal products for other reasons, and I'm sure you will find the same here.

http://theomnivore.com/Straight%20out%20of%20my%20inbox%2011.html

Yeah, I got some probing questions from you, but on that particular forum I don't think I had any out-right opposition. :)

I guess the real opposition came from the other end of the scale (ie. vegetarians) on another forum.

Opposition is probably too strong a word from what I got from Low Carbers. Maybe people just thinking I was perculiar! :D

Don't worry Malcolm, I wouldn't trash you or anyone on other forums ;)

Mitra

03-22-2006, 02:33 AM

Maybe people just thinking I was perculiar! :D

Don't worry about that. You'll fit right in :D.

Gaelen

03-22-2006, 07:19 AM

Oh, Mitra...LOL...thanks, I really needed the laugh this a.m.
And Malcolm...I agree, this group does go out of its way to help people work/figure things out. Thanks for the compliment.

dvdmon

03-22-2006, 12:07 PM

Dave, I would also like to welcome you abaord.

When I started PP about 5.5 years ago, I'd been a... pesco-vegetarian for the previous 6 years. But like Pat, mine was not due to ethical/religious reasons, but because of reading Ornish's Eat More Weigh Less. In other words, I thought it was just healthier. After reading PP, I was convinced I had been mistaken and within 3 months I was eating meat again.

I think there's a great deal of polarization due to "extremists" on both sides. Face it, cooperation and compromise are boring and forums like this for delving into things in detail without judging people or taking unbreakable stands are not that popular. Hopefully, though, there's a "silent majority" out there on both sides which don't paint the other side as evil or misquided.

I think a lot of low-carb carnivores view vegetarians suspiciously beause of the extremist veggies whose main goal is to rid the world of meat, or any use of animals. They consider animals on the same level as humans, and so eating them is considered muder, and even using seeing eye dogs is considered a form of "slavery." This extremism is hard to deal with even for those of us who like to think of ourselves as ethically minded. I try to buy local/free-range/grass-fed/etc. as much as I can in order to give more incentive to that more ethical way to treat animals. Yet I would still be considered a murderer by extremists, since they see things in black and white. And I think part of the ideology of this group is that meat is harmful and that humans evolved to eat only plants.

Likewise, there are advocates of low-carb who could care less how animals are treated and basically look at vegetarians as bleeding hearts. They take every opportunity to rub their meat in the faces of those who find it distasteful for whatever reason.

Luckily, I think you'll find most of us on this board are people that are attracted by the Eades clear-headed, science-based approach to diet and nutrition, and because of this, we like to understand things not in terms of sides or groups, but in less hystrionic and divisive ways. Understanding motives and reasoning and accepting that some people have different philosophies, religions, and physiologies all are hallmarks of discussion here.

As you read the book, let us know what you think. My recommendation, though, would be to read the Protein Power Lifeplan, which covers vegetariansim, if only very breifly, whereas the original Protein Power, to my recollection, does not...

deirdra

04-02-2006, 03:17 AM

I was an ovo-lacto vegetarian for most of 1972-1999, starting because I was a broke college student and continuing because the vegetarian press convinced me that it was the healthiest way to eat. However, I was always dieting, but kept gaining weight and developed asthma, chronic sinusitis & numerous allergies during the 90s while eating 65% carbs (mostly grains in prepared foods and things I made in my breadmaker because they were convenient). After blacking out twice, I decided to take a hard look at what I was eating. I was spending most of my time back then on the McDougall board, until some heretic mentioned PP and the eatprotein board (he was bashed my many BBers, since it was on McDougall's official website, but I am eternally grateful for his comments). It seemed a bit drastic so I tried the Zone for a couple of months, but that was making me more hungry & obsessed with food, so I tried Atkins, but then settled on PP as the best route for me.

I still have all of my vegetarian cookbooks (~25) even though my food allergies/intolerances make it impossible to eat many of the recipes without modification. The best things in the ethnic vegetarian books are the spice combinations, which I use on things of similar texture (e.g. I make my favourite Potato, Pea & Panir recipe out of cauliflower, asparagus & ricotta, and lentil or romano bean recipes with black soybeans instead).

And I now realize that Mollie Katzen was not crazy when she suggested drizzling 2-4T of olive oil over everything, including pizza. Now I probably eat more fat than Mollie ever did!

Although you might encounter the odd person on here asking how you expect to get enough protein on a vegetarian diet, I think you will find most people supportive. I only eat meat/poultry once a day, so I'm always interested in new vegetarian recipes. People on the vegetarian boards will probably give you more flack because "everyone knows you must eat 65% carbs and whole grains to be healthy". So you just need to take what works for you from both camps.

LC_Dave

04-02-2006, 07:21 PM

At the moment I've decided to stay a meat eating. My health is much better and it is a lot easier to eat this way.

But who knows what the future will hold!

Gaelen

04-02-2006, 07:50 PM

No worries, Dave. There are lots of times when people who mainly eat meat need a meatless meal, either for a change of pace for themselves or to accommodate the tastes of another family member or friend. After all, the standard vegetable omelette is a vegetarian dish. ;) Feel free to drop in; a good discussion is always something that makes people sit up and take notice.

Gabriel Guzman

04-09-2006, 08:54 PM

Welcome to the board Dave. I'm sure you'll find a lot of input here and I hope the information/discussions will be of help to you.

I've never been a vegetarian but I learned to eat like that. My studies and work have taken me to different parts of the world where I've met wonderful people, some of them vegetarian because of their religion. Since I love to experiment new food (and experiment with it as well), I learned to enjoy vegetarian food and even cook some of it. In fact, my favorite restaurant when I lived in Stockholm was a Taiwanese vegetarian restauran, which is still by far my absolute favorite.

I don't normally encouter 'opposition' per se when I discuss the advantages of eating animal protein. To me those discussions are more an intelectual exercise because there are plenty of reasons why animal protein is better than plant protein in many aspects. Since I pretty much base such discussions in the science behind it, no heated comments really throw me on a loop. People who don't want to be convinced by facts simply won't be and it's more a waste of time going around the same discussion.

Now, because animal protein provide what plant protein can't (at least by the same amount), it doesn't mean that plant sources of protein are to be neglected. In fact, careful manipulation of different sources may make up a good combination and provide a decent amount of protein. However, one always has to be aware of possible deficiencies that need to be considered (i.e. supplements may be needed to avoid such deficiencies). I sometiems feel the need to endulge myself and just make a meatless meal with all the pleasure that comes with it, just as sometimes when I'm in a true 'animal mood', I just a piece of the juiciest stake medium rare!!!!:) Personally, I like to think that I have a great advantage by enjoyin meat and meatless eating. That way, I can pretty much go to any kind of restaurant! I owe it to a good friend of mine from India, to have experienced several fantastic and delicious meals that the only product derived from animals was a touch of dairy for dessert (one made with rice, raisins and yogurt).

If the opposition to me is presented in a religious context, then I respectfully back down from the discussion because there is little to be done discussing under that frame of mind. But if somebody comes with the 'because is healthiest', then I can help but, also respecfully, get into it head on. The discussion normally ends when I'm told more or less something like this: "you can say whatever you want but my science is better than yours..." Then I know I'm talking to the person's inner child and it's time for me to leave.

LC_Dave

04-09-2006, 09:51 PM

If the opposition to me is presented in a religious context, then I respectfully back down from the discussion because there is little to be done discussing under that frame of mind. But if somebody comes with the 'because is healthiest', then I can help but, also respecfully, get into it head on. The discussion normally ends when I'm told more or less something like this: "you can say whatever you want but my science is better than yours..." Then I know I'm talking to the person's inner child and it's time for me to leave.

Some very good advice there!

Thank you for the welcome!

Bones

05-01-2006, 03:19 PM

Dave, I'd also like to add my welcome. ;)

Is there opposition from meat eaters to low carbing as a vegetarian?
Sure--it's part of the reason that this forum was created on the Eadeses' original board, and why it's been continued here--because there IS a need for information and community support for vegetarian low carbers that goes beyond recipes.

When people told me eating vegetarian AND low carb couldn't be done, I pointed out that at least two-thirds of my meals weren't just meatless, they were vegetarian.

May I make a suggestion for eating beans as a protein source while keeping the carbs low? Sprouting beans before you cook them will lower the carb/starch content. Beans use the starch as their energy source for sprouting. The same is true of grains. I've added beans back into my diet because I just like them too much, especially in the form of chili, to leave them out...

Gaelen

05-01-2006, 10:31 PM

May I make a suggestion for eating beans as a protein source while keeping the carbs low? Sprouting beans before you cook them will lower the carb/starch content. Beans use the starch as their energy source for sprouting. The same is true of grains. I've added beans back into my diet because I just like them too much, especially in the form of chili, to leave them out...

Absolutely; it's a great suggestion, Bones, especially for those people who can tolerate grains and/or beans. I love sprouted mung beans. ;)

However, I've usually just counted them as if they were regular mung beans. because I could never find counts for sprouted ones that were any different..what counts did you find? Could you post them; I'm sure others would be glad to know too!

mcsblues

05-02-2006, 04:03 AM

http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-mung%20beans000000000000000000000.html

There is a difference but both protein and carbs are lower in the sprouted kind. I must admit I hadn't considered cooking mung bean sprouts (or any other bean sprout) but they are good in salads.

Gaelen

05-02-2006, 08:24 AM

Malcolm, I have been using www.nutrtitiondata.com a lot lately to confirm recipe analysis and research completeness of proteins/protein combinations, but I never thought about checking them for sprouted vs. whole mung beans. Duh...:)

I usually eat sprouts raw, too, but I do throw sprouts into stir fries or soups at the end of cooking...mung beans, adzuki beans, and broccoli sprout when I take the time to make them. The quick heat of the stir fry or sitting in the hot soup does 'cook' them.

Bones

05-02-2006, 07:06 PM

Absolutely; it's a great suggestion, Bones, especially for those people who can tolerate grains and/or beans. I love sprouted mung beans. ;)

However, I've usually just counted them as if they were regular mung beans. because I could never find counts for sprouted ones that were any different..what counts did you find? Could you post them; I'm sure others would be glad to know too!

I don't have counts either. I just know that the carb count is lower. I can't remember where it was I had read about it. I did a search on the internet to see what I could find. Here is one page that talked about what happens when the bean/seed is sprouted.

http://www.sproutnet.com/Press/sprou..._nutrition.htm (http://www.sproutnet.com/Press/sprouts_for_optimum_nutrition.htm)

Also, I know that sprouted Ezekiel Bread recently received the official Low GI label for their bread. I'm not sure, but I think that products that are made with sprouted grains/seeds/beans list the nutritional values according to un-sprouted values. I think the health community is just beginning to recognize that there is a change in nutritional content besides just an increase in vitamins. I'm sure before long labels will start to show this difference. Malcom, they say that the protein increases.

All I know is that despite not knowing counts, I can eat an average of 100 grams of carbs (according to current label counts), sometimes more and I don't gain weight. I was losing consistently eating at these levels before I hit my stall.

As far as cooking sprouted beans, I was referring to beans that you would normally cook (pinto beans, navy beans, black beans, etc.), not salad sprouts. I don't cook salad sprouts either. Sprouting any beans/grains/seeds, however you use them, lowers the starch/carb content. I use sprouted grain flour as well for some of my baked goods, or, believe it or not, I make "sourdough" baked goods. The process of fermenting the flour through the sourdough process also lowers the carb content, although I think it lowers it even more than sprouting does. There are reasons why, but now is probably not the time to get into that. I put the word sourdough in quotes because if you care for your sourdough starter correctly it doesn't get sour like the stuff you buy in the store. If you are interested in learning more about sourdough, I can try to find some good links for you to read and we can have a good discussion on it.

I could go on and on about the health benefits of properly made sourdough, but it won't matter if nobody else is interested, and I would hate to bore you. :)

Gaelen

05-02-2006, 08:07 PM

Bones, no information that can improve diet is boring. ;)
That said, in the nutrition counts mcsblues linked, while the starch/carb counts go down in sprouted beans and seeds, the protein also decreases significantly over the cooked, unsprouted beans and seeds. For example:
-- One cup of sprouted raw mung beans = 31 calories as 3g protein, 6g carbs, 2g fiber (about 4g ECC, with rounding.)
-- One cup of sprouted cooked mung beans = 26 calories as 3g protein, 5g carbs, 1g fiber (about 4g ECC, with rounding.)
-- One cup of cooked mung beans = 212 calories as 14g protein, 1g fat, 39g carbs, 15g fiber (about 24g ECC, with rounding)

I think sprouts are tasty, and I like their vitamin profiles, but they don't offer the same quality or amount of protein as the cooked, unsprouted equivalents. Cooking increases the digestibility of most of the nutrients in beans and seeds, accounting for the increased protein, and carbs, in cooked unsprouted beans and seeds. However, I don't usually eat a cup of sprouts (I just don't like them that much!) I might put a half a cup on an entire salad for four... I also would probably stick to a half-cup portion of cooked beans, too...again, because I typically combine beans with other veggies and don't often eat them straight except as a refried bean, which is pretty much just beans and fat. I usually put additional veggies (celery, onions, tomatoes, greens, mushrooms) into fuls and baked beans, chiles, stews and soups, so in a one cup serving of the dish, I'm only getting around a half-cup portion of the beans.

Unfortunately, the science of analyzing the nutrient content of sprouted grains has lagged behind their use. Although I admit they taste wonderful, I do use them in moderation.

laughingW

05-02-2006, 08:56 PM

Best of all possible worlds for beans is cooking sprouted ones whose sprout is tiny, like lentils and adzuki sprouts. That way you get -

lots of nutrition in a cup
good bioavailable cuz it's cooked
extra yummy with butter - better than cooked unsprouted or raw sprouted

Mitra

05-03-2006, 02:18 AM

Bones

05-03-2006, 02:44 PM

Bones, no information that can improve diet is boring. ;)

I'm glad you feel that way. I agree, but I don't know very many people that have a sourdough starter sitting on their counter. :)

That said, in the nutrition counts mcsblues linked, while the starch/carb counts go down in sprouted beans and seeds, the protein also decreases significantly over the cooked, unsprouted beans and seeds.

Got it. By the way, thanks for that link Malcolm. I did not know about that website. I looked at the information on all the sprouted foods. Wow! What a difference in carb content! I don't mind the protein count going down because I get plenty otherwise, I'm just so happy to see how much the carb count goes down...and the calories.

Bones

05-03-2006, 02:55 PM

Bones, I'm happy to hear any talk about bread dough. I started baking desem bread after I heard about it on the previous version of this board, and have been treating my desem like a pet ever since ;) With that and my yogurt, I'm starting to think I'll have to get someone in to look after my cultures when we go on holiday :D.

You make Desem? Good for you. It always makes me so happy to find other people who share my enjoyment of making "non-traditionally" (nowadays) prepared foods. How do you like the taste of Desem? I thought about starting some Desem but with my sourdough starter, I thought it would be too much to keep up with.

Mitra

05-03-2006, 03:29 PM

I like the desem, but when you're eating limited carbs, it's not really practical to keep multiple kinds of starters going - unless you have lots of volunteers to eat the bread. Sadly, even with long-fermented sourdough wholegrain &c, I can only eat one small slice, or I feel very sleepy afterwards. I've been wanting to make the recipe for the Poilane miche (http://www.poilane.fr/index.php?index_module=listings&index_theme=english&index_template=en_produit_bdd.php&product_id=1) that's in one of Peter Reinhart's books, but rather than grow a new starter, I was intending to take of a portion of my desem and feed it to the consistency of the miche starter (much wetter) over a week or two.

By the way, Gaelen & Malcolm, I've been spending hours in the nutritiondata (http://www.nutritiondata.com/index.html) site :rolleyes: . It's foodie-geek heaven :D . Why had I never found it before? It's enough to make me start journalling again ;). Well, almost.

LisaS

05-03-2006, 03:37 PM

then you've probably noticed the easy to use unit converter at the foot of the page? it's as easy as the one built into google

Bones

05-03-2006, 04:53 PM

The sourdough counts at nutritiondata.com were not for real sourdough. I tried to find something on the internet that gave numbers for real sourdough and couldn’t find much. I did find this though, which I thought you might find interesting.

http://www.mendosa.com/acidic_foods.htm

Gaelen

05-03-2006, 05:27 PM

Mitra...I agree...I went to nutrition data the first time Malcolm linked it, and I've been using it to 'second analyze' recipes and double-check nutrient counts and even build recipes ever since. 'Foodie-geek' heaven is right.

Whew...first I was a training geek, then a science geek, then a rock geek, and finally the IT geeks tried to absorb me (I have a sign at my desk that says "I am NOT a geek!"), but I really think foodie-geek is the best. ;)

And Bones...I no longer have a sourdough starter growing on my counter because between not feeling like eating and travelling to NYC once a month, I just really couldn't keep up with it. But I was part of a 'Amish Friendship Bread' ring for more than two years (the ring is still alive at work, I think...) and while that's not a traditional sourdough, it's a truly fermented quick bread starter. I can post it, but it's not decarbed...although I bet it would work with almond meal. Hmmm. A new experiment on the horizon. ;)

And for the same reason I no longer keep a starter fed and happy, I don't make my own kefir, but I usually make my own yogurt. Does that get me into the fermented foods club? ;)

Bones

05-03-2006, 06:05 PM

And Bones...I no longer have a sourdough starter growing on my counter because between not feeling like eating and travelling to NYC once a month, I just really couldn't keep up with it.

Wonderful. So you know what I mean about not too many people having sourdough on their counter...and not being too interested in it when they do see it. I bet you were the only one in your neighborhood to have sourdough starter on their counter as well.

I don't make my own kefir, but I usually make my own yogurt. Does that get me into the fermented foods club? ;)

Sure it does. :D I tried to make several fermented dairy foods, but found that it was easier to just buy them. Sourdough is a different thing all together. It's hard to find a "true" sourdough bread at the grocery store. Also, I use sourdough to make coffee cake, cinnamon rolls, pizza crust, etc. for my family. You don't find those things in grocery stores. As odd as it may sound to make those things with a sourdough starter, the end product is not sour at all. I have had people say that my coffee cake is the best coffee cake they have ever had, not knowing that it was "sour"dough coffee cake.

Gaelen

05-03-2006, 09:39 PM

Bones, since I got making yogurt down to a 15 min. prep (a yogurt maker is a wondrous thing...and even Mitra's thermal jug method is simple and takes no time) I kept doing it, mainly because once made, it will safely store for at least two weeks if it lasts that long, and it's cheaper than store-bought. A quart of whole milk (91 cents), or even fresh half and half ($1.25), which makes around 30 oz. of yogurt, is half the price of a quart of plain yogurt (can go from $1.99-$3.50, depending on brand and source.)

Actually the Amish bread ring involved about 15 people at work at it's height, and still has several active participants. But dough starters do need lots of regular attention; homemade yogurt just needs a couple tablespoons from the last batch to make the next one. ;)

My nut muffins are leavened with, among other agents, kefir or yogurt--again, they don't taste 'sour' at all. Neither did my mom's sour cream coffeecake, a weekend staple while I was growing up. Hmm...yet another thing I should try to de-carb. ;)

Bones

05-04-2006, 06:06 PM

My nut muffins are leavened with, among other agents, kefir or yogurt--again, they don't taste 'sour' at all. Neither did my mom's sour cream coffeecake, a weekend staple while I was growing up. Hmm...yet another thing I should try to de-carb. ;)

Do you/your mom let it sit overnight before baking? The cultures need at least 6 hours to feed on the flour in order to make a significant dent in the carbohydrate content/structure.

Gaelen

05-04-2006, 06:17 PM

Actually, no...I only let the muffins rest about 30 min. before baking. But since they use almond meal for the 'flour,' there's no worries about making much dent in the already low carb content.

As for the sour cream coffeecake, letting the batter rest is definitely something I want to try.

That said...Vivian started a thread on sprouting and sour dough baking (http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=592) in the PP Kitchen...how would everyone feel about moving this discussion there, where it will reach a wider group of members (not everyone cruises this forum, because they think there's naught to learn from vegetarian practice. ;))
I could even move the appropriate posts in the discussion to date, and leave a redirect in this thread, linking the two.

What do you all think?

Bones

05-04-2006, 06:30 PM

Actually, no...I only let the muffins rest about 30 min. before baking. But since they use almond meal for the 'flour,' there's no worries about making much dent in the already low carb content.

I forgot about you mentioning the almond flour. :o Silly me.

That said...Vivian started a thread on sprouting and sour dough baking in the PP Kitchen...how would everyone feel about moving this discussion there, where it will reach a wider group of members (not everyone cruises this forum, because they think there's naught to learn from vegetarian practice.)
I could even move the appropriate posts in the discussion to date, and leave a redirect in this thread, linking the two.

What do you all think?

Sure. That would be great.

Tortoise

05-12-2006, 11:50 AM

Great thread. I'm interested because on my site (About Low Carb Diets) I recently posted an interview with vegan friend who realized she was eating too many carbs, and how she changed her diet. In my forum (which has very little going on in it) a rabid anti-vegetarian started posting. I even had to edit her comments, some of there were so nasty. I don't understand the vehemence - it really mystifies me.

If anyone is interested in the interview (it includes recipes), check out:

http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/vegetarian/a/veganlowcarb.htm

Oh, and I just thought to link to this section of the forum from my vegetarian page - duh!

Laura, former long time poster on the old PP board, now too busy!

Gaelen

05-12-2006, 05:37 PM

Hey, Laura, good to see you, and thanks for the link to the interview! Things must be very busy, but try not to be a stranger, ok?

tammay

05-21-2006, 07:28 PM

Hi Dave,
I recently joined the board, so I'm seeing this thread just now.

I started lowcarbing a while back as a meat-eater and stuck with it for a few years. Then I went off for a year (after I lost 30 pounds) and became a vegetarian (lacto-ovo but no fish) mainly because I just haven't been able to digest meat very well (any kind of meat - fish, poultry, etc.) and wasn't enjoying it, no matter how I cooked it. I gained back 15 of the 30 pounds I lost and so decided a few months ago to go back on the wagon. I also didn't think that vegetarian LC could be done so I opted to go for the South Beach Diet, which totes more good carbs rather than low carbs and allows legume from the start, which was a pretty heafty protein staple of my diet at the time. I did ok with that, though the last few weeks of it I started slowly gaining 1/2 pound every week even though I was doing everything "right". But mainly, I was missing the lowcarb liestyle and wasn't enjoying the grains and fruit I was adding on (never thought I'd say that!) so I decided to do more digging about vegetarianism and lowcarbing. I got Rose Eliot's book "The Vegetarian Low Carb Diet" which, though the plan she offers is an Atkins rip-off, offers some great tips on how to do LC vegetarianism as well as recipes.

I've been doing Vegetarian LC for a few weeks now and even though it takes a lot of creativity to get to the amount of protein that my body requires for PP, I haven't been having too much of a problem so far. I chose to do PP both because I was eating the amount of carbs that PP allows on the Intervention plan anyway on the vegetarian diet I was doing for myself but also because I know that PP will force me to focus on the protein and get enough in. I've always tried to keep my diet as "natural" as possible, i.e., no LC products, no ready meals, etc., and I have had to compromise somewhat with some soy products (mainly Morningstar Farms Veggie "Crumble" and veggie burgers) but I try not to eat them too often. Because I eat cheese and eggs (and love both) getting a variety of protein hasn't been too much of an issue. The great thing about tofu and soy "crumble" is that I can throw them together with any variety of veggies and spices and get a different meal, so I haven't been bored at all so far.

I understand the debate of whether being a meat eater is healthier in the long run than being a vegetarian, but I love being a vegetarian and I'm eating more protein than I was as a meat eater. I also eat a lot of veggies on PP and i try not to overdo on the cheese and yogurt and nuts. I haven't gotten opposition so far, but I have'nt been doing this for very long either :D. One person on another board did mention that she couldn't fathom doing LC as a vegetarian and that I must eat "a lot of cheese" but I probably eat no more than most LCers in a given day.

Sorry for the long response. Hope that helps!

Tam

LC_Dave

05-21-2006, 09:13 PM

Thanks Tam, I have that book as well. She does rip off Atkins, but that's not so back.

She advocates the use of soy (which is a grey area for me).

But it's a step in the right direction.

Not many low carb bashes could argue against a vegetarian plan! ;)

lovebabe

07-31-2006, 09:03 PM

Hi Dave,

I don't think you can divide vegetarians into just 2 groups: low carb and high carb. Vegetarians are just as diverse as people who eat meat. It would be silly to divide all omnivores into either low carb or high carb. The fact of the matter is that just like omnivores, many vegetarians don't put a lot of thought into their diet, especially teens and others who are just starting out as new vegetarians. Also those who are vegetarians mainly for moral or ethical reasons tend to not think as much about the health benefits of vegetarianism as some other do. They are satisfied just knowing that they are not contributing to the cruel and inhumane practices of modern factory farming which causes a lot of undue suffering. However, after time goes on, ethical vegetarians also learn that they can't eat what ever they want as long as it is not animals or animal products without suffering some health problems, just as omnivores can't eat big macs and cokes 3 times a day without suffering health problems. BOTH vegetarians and meat-eaters need to practice thoughtful meal planning in order to have good health over their lifetimes. There are several good vegetarian low carb books on the market. One is called the Conscious Low Carber. Others are The Vegetarian Low Carb Diet and Low Carb Vegetarian. There are also some vegetarian low carb cook books. One is titled appropriately Low-Carb Vegetarian Cooking and another is titled Yummidy. The South Beach Diet which is more moderate carbs or "good carbs/bad carbs" also offers a vegetarian version. Some people get turned off vegetarianism because they think its all about eating tofu and bean sprouts but there are some long time vegetarians who never eat those foods. Actually there are three main reasons why people take up a vegetarian lifestyle: ethical/ moral considerations (reverence for life or seeking more humane practices for animals), health considerations (some people, esp. older people have a hard time digesting meat and fat) and environmental (you can feed more people economically and with less impact on the environment by growing crops only for human consumption rather than growing crops for both human AND animal consumption). Some people become vegetarians for one of these reasons, while many vegetarians adhere to all three.

dvdmon

07-31-2006, 10:47 PM

Lovebabe, thanks for the references. I guess there's also the religious vegetarian, although you might categorize that with moral/ethical, and also the vegetarian based on taste. Some people simply don't like the taste of meat for whatever reason.

Interestingly, I recently had a discussion with my sister about this. She mentioned, half-jokingly, the possibility of eating meat during her next pregnancy. She became a Lacto-Ovo veggetarian back in college and maintained that for a good dozen years until soon before they got pregnant with her first child, when she decided to start eating fish for added nutrition during the pregnancy. She's one of those veggies who did it for ethical reasons, but she doesn't like tofu, so doesn't get that much protein, except from dairy and a bit of TVP and I guess some legumes. She has continued to eat fish for the 2.5 years since her first child was born.

We were talking about this and I mentioned some of the info I've heard regarding The Omnivore's Dilemma, which I still haven't read, but have the audiobook waiting to be listened to. One problem for ethical veggies is that sometimes the view is that the killing of the animal itself is unhumane, so it doesn't matter how the animal was treated before it was slaughtered. Inhumane practices are of course used in the propaganda wars in an effort to coax more people to give up meat, but there doesn't seem to be an effort to promote those farms and methods that are humane. Rather it's these farms and omnivore advocates who try to promote these humane methods in general, since at least for some vegetarians, promotion of more humane treatment when the end is still slaughter for food would go against their aims. It's kind of a ironic in way. Their long term interest of an end are actually furthered by having the current conditions being as bad as they can be.

Anyway, that wasn't quite what I was getting at with my sister. What I was suggesting to her, was that she could encorporate meat, but only the meat from sources she knew were part of a sustainable system and where the animals were treated humainly. Polan, in his book, talks about how some of the meat from Whole Foods, which are marketed as being from humane farming practices, etc., are not quite what they seem. The source he lauds as being beyond reproach is a place called Polyface farm near Charlottesville, VA, although I'm sure there are others like it here and there across the U.S. Whether from Wholefoods or a local farm, though, eating meat from these places is pretty expensive. For a low-carber who wants to eat it at every meal, it really can break the bank, even for those of us who have decent incomes. But for my sister, who doesn't low-carb, she can theoretically be a bit more descriminating. She can eat one or two meals of meat from a place like this per week and not break the bank. For me to do this for every meal (or at every dinner meal), for myself, my wife, father-in-law, and daughter, I'd have to start working a second job! ;)

In any case, it just is very interesting thinking about our own motivations in how we eat. I think those on this board are pretty conscious about what we put in our mouths, but a huge chunk of the country gives only cursory attention to it. They want to know if it tastes good, and then if they develop health or weight problems, only then do they start thinking about what is in the products they're eating. I would say most vegetarians think a lot about what they eat because it takes a lot of effort to be a vegetarian in this country of meat-eaters. Thinking about why we eat what we eat, where it comes from, and how we can support positive trends and not support the negative aspects of our food industry is a big challenge, but one that can and should be at least attempted by all of us. Few of us can be perfect, but the more of us that can support the better choices more of the time, the more likely it is that those choices will be seen as where the market is going. We've had big strides in this company with these smaller farms cropping up, and heck even Walmart is trying to put more and more organic products on their shelves. The only thing we need to look out for is that these labels, like "organic," don't get diluted by legislation lobbied for by Big Agra, which allows them to call things organic which are only partially so. I guess the best way to avoid such pitfalls is to try to buy from local farms or farmers markets.

For (some) vegetarians I think the challenge is in looking at things in not such an absolutist black and white way, but rather in shades of grey. This is had when one's moral compass says that killing an animal for food is horribly wrong. In a way it's a catch-22. Promote farms that use humane practices, and you are still promoting the slaughter, albeit of a better treated animal (up until slaughter). Attack such places along with the factory farms, and you potentially make peopel think they are all the same anyway, so why bother, just get what's cheapest (since most people will not give up meat altoghether).

lovebabe

08-01-2006, 09:41 AM

Well, it may SEEM like the revival of smaller farm operations would not be supported by most ethical vegetarians, but I think that is a myth. While there are many who do not want animals to be killed at all, most will settle for the most humane practices possible. I see that attitude all the time. What you hear from people you encounter (especially young people who tend to get more emotional) and what is in the documented vegetarian/vegan literature is quite different. For instance many many books written by vegetarians and even vegans will tell you outright (as does Dr. Eades in PP) that humans are not vegetarians physiologically and never have been. They are also not strict carnivores. They are omnivores and it can be proved scientifically. Vegetarianism is a CHOICE. We are not born vegetarian. It is an extreme lifestyle and should not be entered into without a lot of thought and research. IMO vegetarians can neglect their health just as easily as anyone else. I am a member of the Veggie Boards and there are many overweight people there as well as people with other eating disorders. Does that mean that vegetarianism is to blame? NO. It means that these people, like some omnivores and human carnivores (and yes there are some people who eat only meat) just eat whatever they want without thinking. I will say this about vegetarianism--the longer a person stays with it, the more he or she will learn what is right for their body. That is why it is so important for ethical vegetarians or those who are vegetarians for other than health reasons, read all they can about vegetarianism from those who have been doing it a long time. One of the biggest, if not THE biggest, problem for vegetarians (esp. vegans) is the lack of an adequate amount of vitamin B-12. Without it the body is in BIG trouble. Even omnivore's can suffer from this if they cannot absorb vitamin B-12. So vegetarians/vegans need to take a supplement and even get checked out for vitamin B-12 deficiency from time to time. As far as vegetarians not wanting to support small farming operations that promote more humane practice for animals, I don't think that is neccessarily the case. ANY alleviation of unneccessary suffering is better than not doing anything at all. PETA may have some very emotional kids working for it (I know, I have been accosted by some of them myself and they didn't even have a clue I was already a vegetarian LOL), but there are still many good things the organization is doing (as well as a few bad things). I find that the local PETA groups that are mostly college and high school kids are the worst and most uninformed. There is promise on the horizon of meat being made from taking the cells from living animals (a painless process that does not hurt the animal) and producing meat. That will be waaay in the future (probably at least 20 years or more), but most ethical vegetarians support that research.

paleogirl

09-01-2006, 07:49 PM

Hi Dave,

I recently came full circle from (and right back to) low-carb Paleolithic. I started by just trying to add more raw veggies for the enzymes, which evolved into raw Paleo for a month (eating raw veggies, fruit and nuts all day with sashimi for dinner - couldn't stomach the raw eggs and meat part - maybe one day :p ). Then as I skipped the sashimi for a few days, I realised I was actually eating raw vegan (I am dairy intolerant and at that point was still sensitive to eggs, so cutting out meat meant automatically becoming a full-fledged vegan). So I decided to officially try Raw Veganism. I saw so many other people thriving on it and I wanted to feel as well as they did and look 25 when I'm 50. :D I didn't buy into the 'weren't not supposed to eat meat' thing (too much Paleo research), but I liked the thought of not being a cog in the animal torture machine any more. (I obviously eat meat and eggs now but strictly only grass-fed/free-range, for health and animal welfare reasons).

I ate strictly that way for 3 weeks before I figured out I was hypoglycemic and couldn't tolerate any fruit - which severely limits a raw vegan diet, esp. if you are gluten and soy intolerant also! :rolleyes: I was essentially left with vegetables and nuts - and the DELICIOUS sprouted dehydrated 'living' nuts I favoured made me bloat (dehydrated seeds and crackers did too). Avocadoes were my mainstay, but by week three I was literally having dreams of eating canned tuna in olive oil! :p

Anyway... Before I came back to Paleoism (and damn did that first can of tuna taste great! :D ), I did research quite heavily how I could be a raw vegan without fruit, which lead me to reading a book by Gabriel Cousens, a vegan who believes that too many carbs are a bad thing. The book explains his theory on this and includes a lot of recipes, and an escalating phase 1/2/3 thing where you gradually add in more carbs, but still don't eat anywhere near as many as most vegetarians/vegans.

This is the book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1556434650?v=glance

I believe he has a couple others as well. Beyond his food ideas, if you're vegetarian and not vegan you can count on protein from eggs etc. too of course.

Whilst I was struggling through my foggy 3 weeks as fruit-dependant hypoglycemic, I looked to hemp protein powder to keep my protein levels up (this way of eating felt wrong to my body and I presumed it was lack of protein so I looked for other sources). I would have a green juice in the morning (lots of dark leafy low-carb veggies) and throw in 2 scoops of hemp protein, which added about 15g, plus some spirulina. The hypoglycemia got so bad in the end that even a pure green vegetable juice affected my blood sugar. It was then I knew I had to stop, and I went and confirmed my hypoglycemia suspicions at my doctor's office, and went back on low-carb Paleo as soon as I got home. My symptoms diminished the next day and I was refilled with energy. I've been getting better ever since (this was 7 weeks ago). I still have to be really careful with fruit (small portions, combined with a ratio of more protein and fat than fruit) and I'm still working on losing the pounds I gained from eating all that stuff I couldn't handle, but thankfully at last my skin has cleared up! :o (This post is NOT to knock the vegan diet btw - it's simply a tough choice for someone gluten/casein/soy intolerant with serious hypoglycemia, in my experience).

I very much admire the raw vegan concept and I would probably still be eating that way if my body were suited to it. And I have carried some aspects of it back to my cave :D with me - trying to get in as many raw veggies as possible within my carb limits, eating as much raw fish as I can afford, and I intend to resume green veg juicing once my hypoglycemia is stable. So I wish you luck on your journey. :) Check out Gabriel's book(s) and maybe Google his name - you might find some other supporters of low-carb vegetarianism.