Menopause Questions Again

[Mitra]

I'm still in the "starting to change" stage of things, but it seems that I need to be a lot more careful these days if I want to avoid those afternoon crashes. I'm not yet sure if being more careful has much effect on the overall fatigue (which some months never seems to lift) and general feeling of emotional fragility. So far I've not seen any particular effect on my weight.

Eating late, or having a glass of wine before the food both seem to cause major crashes these days.

Has anybody else noticed that kind of effect - or is this one of those things that's so individual you never find any two people with the same set of symptoms?

[Gaelen]

Mitra--pre chemo, which put me into full-blown menopause, I could eat late and drink caffeine from sunup 'til midnight with no effects.

Partly because I was off caffeine for a long part of chemo, I am now really sensitive to it. I'm okay if I start the day with decaf, then have one cup of caffeinated coffee in the early afternoon, and follow that with no more than one cup of decaf later on. More caffeine than that, and I'll start having mid-afternoon crashes, too.

The emotional fragility, oddly enough, seems to occur for 3-5 days about what would have been the middle of my cycle. No idea what's going on there, but maybe my body is trying to reset itself.

The only effect on my weight has been that things move much more slowly now...

[Mitra]

I've sometimes had a slightly over-active, over-heated feeling around mid-cycle, even with a bit of flu-ey, feverish feeling occasionally. I could imagine the fragile feeling going along with that.

I think I'd probably implode if I had to deal with chemo as well as hormones :eek:. I haven't tried drinking a lot of coffee - just one small cappuccino after breakfast, but given the way everything just seems to be hanging together by a thread at the moment, I can't imagine it would be good.

When I have a "normal" cycle, I'll be tired for a variable number of days, then pick up again once I start to menstruate - sometimes a day or so sooner. Recently, though, some cycles the picking up bit just hasn't happened, or is very slight - and I don't think I'm ovulating every time. There were a couple of odd months early last summer, just before I had my infected tooth fixed, and then again this year, around the time we were spending hours in the hospital with my MIL while she was dying. I'm sort of guessing that the hormones aren't so robust as they used to be, so stress/infection or whatever are more likely to disrupt things than in the past.

I don't like feeling fragile, though. And I feel really wimpy when I have to eat just the right amount at just the right time :(. I suppose I should be thankful that I've learned enough about how food affects me to be able to spot some patterns and manage it to a degree. I was always prone to crashes in the afternoon if I had excessively carby lunches (which was most days before PP :rolleyes:) but now they seem to happen regardless of what I had for lunch if I don't eat dinner within about 6 hours.

[Cacky]

Hi Mitra!

I'm pretty well done with everything now. I tended to have emotional crashes, not physical. In fact, I did call it "crashing" when talking it about it with my friends. I became so attuned, that I would wake up in the morning and think "I'm starting to crash". :nod: It was weird how I could tell what "intensity" of crash to expect. I learned that some days it was better to stay home and not go to work. It's rather unnerving to your co-workers when suddenly you start getting weepy at your computer terminal! :crybaby:

For me, too many carbs triggered night sweats. :redface:

Hang in there, you'll do fine! The fact you are recognizing what is happenig with your body is half the battle. :nod:

[Mitra]

Thank you, Cacky :). It's good to know it's survivable :lol:.

I've always had some degree of premenstrual tiredness - it's just that over the last few years it's grown from being a day or two to a week or two, or a couple of times the entire month. I find I can cope much better if I know it won't last very long. Thinking that I might be exhausted for years makes it very daunting.

This time, the tiredness does seem to have lifted somewhat. Unfortunately it lifted with the arrival of TOM, which has brought lower back problems (another old friend). I did have one day of feeling OK in between, though ;).

[Missy]

Oh Mitra...so sorry that your having difficulties. I'm not there YET...but well, I can empathize. No one else but a fellow woman can best empathize.

From my own situation THAT particular "exhaustion" is unlike being tired, huh? Actually, I've come to like it....because when I feel it, I know a NICE LONG NAP is easily taken...and it's so overwhelming that you think you could nod off, sleep for days, in just about ANY situation your in! :eek: (even DRIVING!):eek:

I've had THAT back pain too.

Oh well, I guess we just rack it up to womandom, eh?

I just wanted to chime in and offer up some morale support ((Mitra))~ you too ((Cacky)) and ((Gaelen))!

Heck, after reading about you all menopauser's...why...it doesn't seem to me that what I get to look forward too will be much different then NOW! :jawDrop: only more unpredicable, longer with mystery symptoms....kkkeeyrap! :jawDrop:

[Mitra]

Missy, I know what you mean about it being sort of enjoyable to feel tired enough for a nice nap (as long as you have a chance to have that nap). When I had a full time job I used to almost resent it when the tiredness had passed during work time without any opportunity for extra sleep :lol:. What makes it less enjoyable now is that it seems to happen for such a lot of the time, and I don't ever know how long it will last :(.

Thank you for your support - it really does help :).

[Missy]

lol...actually Mitra...I SO LOVE that particular tiredness....because it's so overwhelming that it's a NO BRAINER that it's okay to take....cause of my "condition" you know. ;) LOL ~ my husband can't rationalize it away from me. LOL :D (Not that I'd LISTEN!) lol

Glad I could help an OLD BIRD! roflmao....;) :D

[Shadow]

Heck, after reading about you all menopauser's...why...it doesn't seem to me that what I get to look forward too will be much different then NOW! :jawDrop: only more unpredicable, longer with mystery symptoms....kkkeeyrap! :jawDrop:
You have summed it up perfectly, Missy ;) :tongue: :lol:! I now have not only more symptoms, but have them more frequently than before :rolleyes:... It's a definite tight-rope act!

Mitra - Yes, I know exactly what you mean :(. The only thing I've found that helps - not always mind you, but usually - is to eat a light lunch and then have a midafternoon snack. Both the lunch and snack need to (for me) be heavy on protein, moderate of fat, and scarce on carbs. But as with all things, YMMV ;).

[Missy]

sigh....you guys aren't making ME feel ANY BETTER! :cool: lol :eek:

[Mitra]

I'm going with the afternoon snack at least on days when I won't get dinner at 6pm. That does seem to help.

The other thing I'm thinking about is exercise. I have a suspicion that moderately intense exercise is more helpful, but between back troubles and lack of energy, it's been more towards the gentle end of things recently. And pushing it too fast definitely doesn't help with the back. I'm not sure about the energy - sometimes working hard makes me less tired, sometimes it makes me more tired. I just have to learn to recognise which is which :rolleyes:. Any ideas?

[Shadow]

I'm not sure about the energy - sometimes working hard makes me less tired, sometimes it makes me more tired. I just have to learn to recognise which is which :rolleyes:. Any ideas?
Heck no :lol:! Seriously, there begins to be a negative effect from overdoing the exercise. I find that pushing the weights never brings me an afternoon crash. But, pushing the cardio - especially high impact/high intensity - tends to really wear me down after more than a couple times a week. Since I upped my cardio :rolleyes:, I was originally doing HI/HI all 4 days but was so exhausted by the end of the week that my effort on it was minimal. Now I am trying 2 days HI/HI and 2 days at a lower intensity rate and that has helped a lot.

However, how that would affect you is only a guess since you don't tend to do weights and cardio :lol: :o....

[Missy]

You girls don't THINK that you can BEGIN to make SENSE of ANY of this, now do you?! :eek:

Mitra...you just KNOW SHADE couldn't RESIST...lol :nod: :cool:

[Mitra]

I do use weights sometimes - when I do Slow Burn. And I think that a high intensity yoga practice would be more like weights than like cardio. Things like plank/squat/superman type of stuff. I think the risk of my overdoing cardio is very small http://4fxearth.net/phpBB2/smilies_mod/upload/57f4dd2d586b30ffbc1412a5d9214075.gif.

Thinking about it makes me realise that I do know the kind of stabilising (in terms of energy, rather than structure) work I need to be doing. Funny how these things come to you when you start to talk it through with someone else :).

[Missy]

LOL...GOOD ONE MITRA! :D :thumbsup:

[Shadow]

Mitra - So glad you found a key to try and solve the dilemma :thumbsup:! Keep us posted!

Missy - Behave yourself! I'm watching you :evil: :lol:!

[Mitra]

I'll let you know, Shadow - I'm not thinking in terms of "solving," so much as just keeping things sort of manageable ;).

[Missy]

HEY! I was just WAITING for either of you two to STOP ignoring me in your little disscussion...lol...that's ALL! :D

Mission ACCOMPLISHED! ...:D

oh, and Shade...I'm going to log off to go the GYM! :D

[Mitra]

:lol: Missy, I don't think you're very ignorable :D.

[Missy]

lol....nope, your right! ;) :D Okay NOW I'm going to log OFF!

going to do some cardo...Mitra? Wanna JOOOINNN ME?! lol :D ;)

[Mitra]

I have to go and lock the church. That'll be a fairly short but brisk walk, which, along with doing 4 flights of stairs at a moderate run a few times a day, is as much cardio as I'll be doing!

[Shadow]

HEY! I was just WAITING for either of you two to STOP ignoring me in your little disscussion...lol...that's ALL! :D
Missy - Trust me, there is NO ignoring you :lol:!

[Shadow]

I'll let you know, Shadow - I'm not thinking in terms of "solving," so much as just keeping things sort of manageable ;).
Well, I don't think I've solved any of my issues either so manageable works perfectly well for me :lol:!

[BawdyWench]

Greetings, ladies. I haven't been around for a while, things are going terribly, and I need some answers. Don't worry. I'm not expecting you all to answer all my questions. Maybe if I just write them down I'll get the catharsis I need. (Can you tell I'm in menopause brain fog?)

I'm up around 40 pounds now, which is where I was when I first discovered Protein Power in 1998. I'm 52 (almost 53) and haven't had a period for a year.

Mild hot flashes. Adrenaline spikiness in my forehead followed by a body flush. Like you have a fever, but when I touch my forehead I feel no extra heat.

Achy. Achy. Achy.

And the fat gain is that wobbly fat that looks and feels like it's mostly fluid. Mostly around the mid-section.

Tears and mood swings. Lack of interest in things. I mean it, I could sit in a chair and stare off into nothing for hours at a time. OK, maybe not hours, but for a very long time (20 - 30 minutes?).

I've read what "The Brain Trust" has to say about menopause. He states emphatically that a ketogenic diet is the best thing going for brain function and for menopause.

I get it. I really do. I even pasted a quotation on my computer screen that I read several times a day: "Do you choose to simply know the path, or do you choose to walk it?"

I want to walk it, I really do. And yet I don't. I eat healthy foods (meat and saturated fat, very minimal veggies -- I strongly believe this is best) for days on end, but then something happens and it's all out the window. Not major binges or anything, but definitely off plan.

For example, an "off plan" day for me might be eggs or a protein shake (or nothing) for breakfast, some coffee with heavy cream for a snack, some protein for lunch, nothing in the afternoon, and then "binge" on 1 or 2 glasses of wine and maybe a handful of pretzels, followed by a meal of protein, fat, and maybe 1/2 cup of brown rice.

See? Not a huge blowout, but not on plan, either.

The alcohol seems to be a major show-stopper for me these days. I do feel better when I do without, but then (stupid me) I think I can have one glass, which turns into two and then I wake up at 2:00 am and can't sleep.

I believe in LC eating lock, stock, and barrel. I know it's the right thing to do. I just can't bring myself to do it 24/7 the way I used to.

Oh, and did I mention supplements? I'm so sick of having to take a dozen pills morning AND night. They say I need a good multi, magnesium, potassium, Vitamin D3, Krill oil, flaxseed oil, fish oil, ad infinitim.

And now Christmas is here and DH is already starting to ask for his favorite cookies -- ones that I only make at Christmas because neither one of us can resist them. He'll be home for 2 full weeks, and I always end up eating more when he's around.

So, any of you who are "through" menopause. Does any of this EVER get any better?

[Mitra]

Hello, Bawdy, I wondered where you were :). I don't have any answers, I'm afraid. In fact, reading the post from the start of this year, things haven't changed much - it's just that it's been going on for longer, so I'm more used to feeling this way :rolleyes:. Actually, you're further down this road than I am - I'm 46 and still menstruating, so I'll be looking to you for answers when you find them!

Your off plan day menu could be brought on plan with just a little tweaking - if you substituted nuts for the pretzels, and cut down to 1/4 cup of brown rice, you'd probably be OK as long as the wine is dry and the glasses aren't too large.

I read the Brain Trust, too - and tried taking mountains of supplements, then reached overload and ditched them all. I'm just getting ready to restart a few basic ones again. I can't be doing with a teacupful!

I can identify with the staring into space - I felt as if I was almost my old self again a few days ago, because I actually had enough energy to feel bored :lol:. It's gone again now :( but it was nice to know that it can still happen!

[BawdyWench]

Thanks for the kind words, Mitra. Of course I know how to tweak my off days to bring them more into low-carb eating. That's not the point. The point is that I get so that I don't really care and figure a small indulgence here and there won't make a difference. I just have to get it through my thick skull that it does matter -- at least in my case. Maybe after years of eating low-carb, any dalliances into that world again (even if only a very small dalliance) makes my body overreact.

After reading what I wrote, I did manage to get off my butt and do the elliptical for 5 minutes (I know, but that thing kills me and I need work work up slowly) followed by 30 minutes on the treadmill (3.0 mph, incline of 3).

So, small steps.

Breakfast today was 6 cookies (yikes! they're gone now); no lunch; and dinner was a good-sized chicken breast in a orange cream sauce. It's made with wine, sugar-free marmalade, and heavy cream. Totally LC.

And tomorrow is the company Holiday Pot Luck. I'm making a huge "Mexican" quiche (eggs, heavy cream, ground beef with taco seasoning) that you top with full-fat sour cream and salsa. That should fill me up for a good while. I'm really going to try staying away from all the sweets. I'm thinking about making my favorite LC splurge to eat if the sweets start calling. It's about 3 ounces of cream cheese, a good tablespoon of macadamia nut butter, a bit of heavy cream, and a bit of Splenda. Very rich and very filling, especially if I eat slowly and make it last.

Actually, that sounds like an excellent plan. I'll go prepare that right now. And I already have leftover roast pork (no rice) for dinner tomorrow night. I should be good to go. No wine.

AND I plan to do the elliptical again (pushing the time up) followed by the treadmill.

I'm thinking that getting off my butt and moving a little will help my mood AND my dedication to healthy eating. I mean, when you're exercising, you are a little less likely to ruin it all by eating poorly.

At least that's what I'll keep telling myself.

[laughingW]

Bawdy, I'm through my transition and I didn't have what you're going through so take it for what it's worth. I think it's because I don't do wine and white powder sweets because my body reacts like it sounds yours does.

Do your off-plan days coincide with "ghost" periods? If so, simply eating more could help.

Have you ever tried an experiment of 4 weeks without wine and Splenda?

[BawdyWench]

Not consciously, but likely. How's that for wishy-washy? I know I've gone for a week or two, but maybe not four. That's definitely something to think about. Thanks for the idea. I'll ponder it.

[laughingW]

LOL, that is the most lukewarm reaction ever.

Maybe all I'm saying is - how about trying something you've never ever tried before. How many times have you tried upping the exercise and "moderation" with the wine and sweets.

Could be that what you think is helping your program be pleasurable, is the cause of the inability to stay on program.

That's how it was for me anyway.

[BawdyWench]

You definitely have a point. But believe me, I really don't overdo the sweets. I rarely have white flour or sugar. Probably 95% of the time I eat fewer than 10 ECC per day. (I've been doing this for a very long time now, and I'm very good at knowing how many carbs I'm taking in.)

Right now I'm convinced that it all comes down to hormones. Until those straighten themselves out, all I will likely be able to do is tread water.

I did work out last night -- moderate workout. As soon as I'm done here, I'm going upstairs and do another 30 minutes on the treadmill. It's a positive thing.

[laughingW]

I'm talking about the *taste* of sweet, not the carb grams. It is the *taste* of sweet that starts the hormonal cascade, not the ECC. Same with wine. It's not the ECC but what it does to your hormones and brain neurotransmitters. I think that's why both the Brain Trust and Wisdom of Menopause advise against intense, refined sweets if you want to minimize symptoms during transition.

Splenda on the tongue is 200 times sweeter than table sugar per volume. When you have it, do you use a fraction of the sugar you would use, or, ... ?

Just to give you some more info as you figger it all out.

Here's another thought. If your body responds with excess insulin to the taste of sweet, maybe you are in a higher insulin state when you don't think you are because you haven't had the ECCs, but your body thinks you are because you've had the taste of sweet. Then if you exercise while insulin is high I don't think you can use the stored body fat.

[BawdyWench]

Yup, all good points. Alcohol is, we all know, the ultimate sugar high (even though it doesn't contain a lot of sugar). I do know what you're saying about the taste of sweet as opposed to actual carbs.

It's good to be reminded of things, even if you know them already.

Thanks for the tips. I'll definitely be working through all this. I'm taking some time off over the next couple weeks, and hope to get through more of The Brain Trust and Good Calories Bad Calories. Sometimes the more repetition, the better. Maybe I just need to be hit over the head withe the obvious a few more times before it will sink in again.

;)

[laughingW]

I was just going to take it all back. Felt like it was preachy. You know as much lc reading as me and you know your own situation much better!

so I will just say, best of luck, enjoy the holiday, and I'm sure it really truly will get better one way or another. Even if just from the passage of time.

[Gaelen]

I did work out last night -- moderate workout. As soon as I'm done here, I'm going upstairs and do another 30 minutes on the treadmill. It's a positive thing.

Hey, Bawdy...good holidays!
Somewhere here folks were having a discussion about exercise (specifically cardio versus resistance) and its effects on hormone levels. Tried to search for it quickly but I'm running late. Anyway, when you posted that you were going to go take another hit of treadmill, I remembered the discussion but not where to find it. You may want to PM Max to see if you can locate the thread...the take-away I'm remembering is that while exercise may be helping with your stress level and giving you the feeling that you're in control, the type of exercise you're doing may not be helping your hormones level out but may in fact be making the hormonal issues temporarily worse.

Worth checking out, eh?
Take care.

[BawdyWench]

Geezum crow! Those nasty hormones seem to have a finger in everything! Now I have to worry about what exercise I do. Sheesh.

BUT, thanks for the tip, Gaelen. I'll definitely do a search when I get home tonight. I've done a whole two days in a row of moderate (3 mph, incline of 3) treadmill for 30 minutes each night. It's enough to get warm, but not really enough to work up a sweat. Still, I wouldn't want to rub those hormones the wrong way! If they'd prefer I did something else, I see no better recourse than to figure what it is and then do it! :p

LaughingW, I hope you don't think I was being sarcastic or anything. We've both been LCing for a while (me since 1998) and we both know a lot. Trouble is, we forget things, or at least I do. It never hurts to be reminded. I truly appreciated your comments.

[BawdyWench]

LaughingW, I don't know if you're still watching this thread, but I wanted to let you know that I've been doing a lot of thinking about what you said regarding Splenda. I've also been doing a lot of reading in other threads about how Splenda affects other people.

I've always maintained that Splenda doesn't affect me negatively in any way. But how do I know that? Fact is, I don't.

I also said I don't use Splenda much. That's true and not true. I don't use Splenda in baking (I don't bake much these days). I don't drink diet sodas.

I do, however, drink a large Dunkin Donuts coffee every day on the way to work (3 times a week). I put 4 packets of Splenda in it. Thinking about it now, that's way too much Splenda to have in a day.

So, I skipped by DD coffee yesterday when I went in to the office, and will skip it for the next several weeks to see if it makes any difference.

I'll send you a PM, too, to make sure you get this. And, feel free to be "preachy" with me as much as you like (not that you were!). I seem to need the reminders.

:D

[BawdyWench]

I've had it with these stupid hot flashes and mood swings! A friend of mine at work, who is a year older than me, was having terrible hot flashes. She started taking Black Cohosh a couple months ago, and says she hasn't had a single hot flash since starting to take it. Not a single one! AND, she says her mood swings are a thing of the past.

I told DH about it, and he suggested I go get some immediately and take a loading dose!

First dose was this morning. I was having those weird sensations -- not quite hot flashes, but that prickly feeling all over -- on the way home from the store. I haven't had any more since taking my first dose (all of 2 hours ago). I'll keep everyone posted on my success (or lack thereof).

Anyone else have experience with Black Cohosh?

[Relief]

I tried it, ( black cohosh) I didn't notice ANYTHING after taking it for 3 months. FWIW. I have heard others have good success though. really hope it helps you!

[Anniesnan]

okay - I know what mood swings are - and have been recently having them...

but, I had no idea that just sitting in a fog or being confused had anything to do with menopause...

I'm at just the "right" age (49) and have, within the last 6 months or so, been irregular for the first time since ever - missing my period, then getting the next one a week early and it lasts for 2 1/2 weeks (fun:mad:)

so, I have a question about night sweats/hot flashes.

Three nights this week I have woken up (mind you, it's been under 20 around here, my bedroom is kept around 62ish) ROASTING, but not feverish or sweating (but I am not a sweater:rolleyes:) and throw off my covers and my pajamas and wake up an hour or so later cold again.

Does this sound like menopause, or am I just getting sick:rolleyes:?

[Relief]

sounds like menopause :D

[BawdyWench]

Alas, menopause.

Actually, that was my first symptom of menopause. I would wake up roasting, throw off the covers (and anything I happened to be wearing), and then a while later I'd be so cold I'd have to put everything back on.

We also keep the bedroom cold. I turn the furnace down to about 60 in the winter, and we keep a fan turn to "high" pointed at the bed. I can still get hot. And this is from someone who used to wear a sweatshirt, sweat pants, sweat socks, to bed (romantic, huh?), and then cover myself with the sheet, two or three blankets, a comforter, another bedspread, and often a afghan to boot.

DH says that when it started, he would sometimes reach over to touch me, and I'd be so hot he couldn't leave his hand on me. He said it was like I was burning up.

So, all that's left to say is . . . Welcome to the club!

Some of the other things you might notice along the way are brain fog (as you mentioned), the menopot (the weight gain in the mid-section), and your teenage friend acne.

It's a joyous time of life! :eek:

[LisaS]

if you have not read it, I recommend you pick up the book The Brain Trust by Dr. McCleary. Either buy it or get it from the library. He does have some ideas on reducing menopause symptoms (since you have them) and it may be that if you can correct early on it will be easier.

[BawdyWench]

I have the book, and I started taking the Anti-Excitatory Cocktail yesterday. I can't find MCT oil, so I can't start on the Ketogenic Cocktail yet. First and foremost, he recommends a ketogenic diet, which I'm already doing (obviously).

I'll report back after a week or so (not that I won't post before then) regarding how the cocktail is working. I'm also going back to very low-carb eating (no more than 10 ECC per day). The holidays were a bust, but I believe it's ok to break for feasts once or twice a year.

[Anniesnan]

I actually went to the book store yesterday and tried to buy it (The brain trust program) - but they didn't have one in stock:(

I'll order it off the internet.

It's so ultra confusing and I think I've compounded it by trashing my diet the last 2-3 weeks and changing a medication I'm taking for something unrelated to menopause or my digestive tract, but might very well be attributable to the fog and headaches.

I need to go back to baby steps and I think eliminate most carbs (I'll keep in "good" heavy duty greens) for at least a week - maybe 2. I think I have a doc's appt on Thursday, and the blood work should give me an inkling if the med change is causing any of the changes, too.

[BawdyWench]

I've finally gotten through "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes. I am definitely going back to solid LC eating, with no more than 10 ECC per day (most days will be less than that, since that's what I like best).

I'm troubled by two passages in Taubes' book. The first appears on page 39:

An unfortunate lesson came in the summer of 2002, when physicians learned that the hormone replacement therapy they had been prescribing to some six million post-menopausal women --either estrogen or a combination of estrogen and progestin -- seemed to be doing more harm than good. . . . It was only in the 1990s that the National Institutes of Health launched a Women's Health Initiative that included the first large-scale, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of hormone-replacement therapy. Sixteen thousand healthy women were randomly assigned to take either hormone replacement or a placebo, and then followed for at least five years. Heart disease, breast cancer, stroke, and dementia were all more common in the women prescribed hormone replacement than in those on placebos.

So, one would take from this study that one should NOT attempt to replace estrogen.

But then, on page 373, he talks about "what may have been the most elightening animal experiments":

In these experiments, the researchers removed the ovaries from female rates. This procedure effectively serves to shut down production of the female sex hormone estrogen (technically estradio). Without estrogen, the rates eat voraciously, dramatically decrease physical activity, and quickly grow obese. When the estrogen is replaced by infusing the home back into these rates, they lose the excess weight and return to their usual patterns of eating and activity.

So? I guess we're doomed to be obese, because we sure don't want to have heart disease, breast cancer, stroke, and dementia.

Sure, LC eating is good, is there really no way around the weight gain?

:(

[Gaelen]

Bawdy, I've been through menopause (chemo-induced.)
Prior to chemo at age 48, I had few if any symptoms of peri or pre-menopause. I also used soy protein isolate in my daily protein shake, about 25g a day, and before SPI, I used things that gave me around 25g original sources of soy protein, such as edamame, tofu or tempeh. 25g of soy protein, which was what they were recommending 7 or 8 years ago, isn't really very much--less than 3 oz. of tempeh or tofu, a half cup of edamame, on scoop of SPI in my protein shake. I never took supplements.

I do think menopause is a process, and like menstruation, it's something the female body was/is evolutionarily designed to go through. I *don't* think it's something to try to avoid. I know some of the side effects are tough--been there!--and symptoms that are debilitating do need to be controlled, but I would choose the therapies which LEAST affect your hormonal balances and let your body help do its job of finding its path to regulation.

Granted, that means that for a time, you might be carrying more weight than you want. It took me about a year to make a meaningful dent in the weight gain--some of it contributed by chemo, some by earlier than planned menopause, some of it contributed by surgery-dictated changes to my ability to exercise and the types of exercise I am now able to do. It also means that for a time (and the time varies for each woman) you will have to cope with hot flashes, night sweats, vaginal dryness. You will have to be more vigilant about bone density, and about keeping your musculature strong.

I know first hand that the symptoms are not easy--but also that they are completely survivable, and that it IS a process that your body needs to go through. I could use soy protein, sometimes, but basically because of chemo was not able to use most of the other types of remedies. Hey, try being nauseous, gaining weight, and having utterly unpredictable and completely malfunctioning internal body temp control ALL AT THE SAME TIME. It sucks, but it is survivable.

The take-away I got from those studies Taubes was talking about was that HRT should only be used as a last resort, for measured and temporary periods of time, to deal with symptoms which are debilitating until the body can begin to find its own way of leveling out. And that no, you can't typically expect to be a healthy version of the same weight you were as a high school cheerleader after menopause...you need to eat more fat, you need to pay attention to your diet, you need to exercise to maintain muscle mass, you may gain a few pounds (although you have some control over the shape of those pounds...) and that during the time immediately prior to and during menopause, until your body's endocrine system finds its own level, you may be a bit uncomfortable. Not at all unlike the onset of menses...

It doesn't mean it's hopeless. It might mean we would do better to spend less energy fighting the aging process, and more energy figuring out how to understand and enjoy our bodies.

Mileage will vary.

[BawdyWench]

Gaelen, you're the best. Thank you so much for taking the time to write. I've been struggling with this for 2 years now (almost 3), but I know (or at least hope) that it will soon come to an end.

I tried bio-identical progesterone and estrogen for about 2 months, but didn't really like it, so I dropped it. The only thing I'm taking now specifically for menopause symptoms is Black Cohosh, which does seem to put a dent in the hot flashes.

I'm really leary about soy -- so many terrible things written about it. I still have 2 canisters of protein powder with soy in it, but put it to the back of the pantry. Maybe I'll try using that for a couple weeks in my morning shake.

You've gone through so much, and you're wonderful to share your experiences. We all go through these downers, huh? Mood swings suck, too.

Well, back to serious LC eating, like I know I should. Someone somewhere had this quote in their signature: "Do you choose to simply know the path, or do you choose to walk it?" I typed it out and stuck it to my computer screen. I need to walk it. One step in front of the next.

[laughingW]

I would be leery too of soy protein powder. Did you know that it was marketed after they tried to figure out what to do with the leftovers after making soy oil? And then they came up with this idea of adding it to food and calling it health food, after twisting the research about healthful soy which was mostly fermented soy. I would stick to fermented soy or edamame, not industrial processed soy.

Gaelen that is interesting about the 25 g - that's the amount per day another writer (DesMaisons) says is good around menopause, to lessen symptoms during the transition.

[BawdyWench]

The soy protein shake powder I have left is Atkins Advantage. The ingredients are (in order) milk protein concentrate, soy protein isolate, and then some oils, etc. No clue how much soy that is.

A good friend of mine has been battling menopause for more than 10 years now (symptoms started around age 40 for her). She uses a LOT of soy in her diet, and I can't see that it's doing her any good at all.

Anyway, I have 1 canister left, so I'll use that up and see what happens.

[Relief]

wold anyone be able to post the "cocktail" recipes in " the Brain Trust Program" ? I've got the book on order but can hardly wait to get started!

I just got some krill oil also--how much of that does he recommend? I can't find a mg amount in Dr Eades postings either, so was just wondering.

thanks in advance!

[Mitra]

wold anyone be able to post the "cocktail" recipes in " the Brain Trust Program" ? I've got the book on order but can hardly wait to get started!

I just got some krill oil also--how much of that does he recommend? I can't find a mg amount in Dr Eades postings either, so was just wondering.

thanks in advance!

The ketogenic coctail is to be taken one to three times per day:
1-2 Tbsp MCT
1 tsp - 1 Tbsp flaxseed oil (mostly burned for energy and helps promote ketone formation)
50mg EPA (extracted, or fish or krill oil) (speeds up the burning of long chain triglycerides for energy, so improves ketone generation).

I took it for a while before we went away for Christmas, but didn't notice much difference, though he does say the supplementation can take a couple of months to take effect. I used the lower amount of flax oil because I don't like the taste, and I took 1 tsp of the mix three times a day.

He says it's good for brain fog and hot flashes. I haven't had hot flashes. I'm not sure about the brain fog - it felt more depressed than foggy. I feel better now, but I don't know what made the difference. The bad times generally coincide with anovulatory cycles/spotting/unusually long cycles. Like Gaelen, I prefer not to regard the changes in hormones at menopause as something that needs fixing, but there are times when it's difficult, and if those times persisted for months, I would be looking for some medical help. So far I've not used things like soy or black cohosh, because without knowing which hormone is particularly high or low, it's hard to know which ones might help. A nice regular lifestyle, good food, moderate exercise and little stress helps - but life doesn't always cooperate :lol:.

[Relief]

I'm looking for help with the hot flashes/night sweats which are still pretty uncomfortable--and I haven't had a period in three years.

I've treid the bio identical hormone route--it was expensive and I didnt' find much help so I stopped. HOWEVER the hot flashes are gettign WORSE lately and I am back to struggling with thyroid dosage again. looking for some key to what might be out of whack.

I can't think that the cocktail will be of much use--I already use coconut oil regularly, I have flax everyday and take a big slug of codliver oil ( about 1500 mgs of EPA) I have also added krill oil lately so 'm getting everything recommended and more! sooooo.....

I am doing a thyroid test this week and have an appointment later this month. I guess I will do some saliva tests as well for hormone levels as something feels pretty out of whack again.

I ate a lot of sugar for about 3 days over christmas--you wouldn't think so--but it feels like I really screwed up something on the insulin resistance/ adrenal front that is going to take some seriously clean eating to fix!

[BawdyWench]

Relief, I believe you're onto something with the "lots of sugar over three days." My hot flashes got worse when I was eating more carbs over Christmas; in fact, sometimes I would eat something with a lot of sugar in it, and almost immediately I'd have a hot flash.

I do believe the Black Cohosh is helping with not only the hot flashes and night sweats, but also with the mood swings. I was halfway to work this morning when I remembered that I took all my supplements this morning EXCEPT the Black Cohosh. A few minutes later, I got a bad one. Maybe what reminded me was a "before shock" (as opposed to an "after shock") that hints of a hot flash to come.

And I have to say that I felt lousy all day. Hot flashes on and off throughout the day, and (as I told several people first thing this morning) I felt like a melt-down was imminent. It never came, but only because I fought it.

I'm going to research tonight whether I can take 2 capsules of Black Cohosh daily. I'm thinking if it helps with hot flashes during the day, maybe a second dose taken at bedtime would help with the night sweats. Last night (DH was on a business trip) I started off in yoga pants, a sweatshirt, and sweat socks. I ended up butt neked with only a sheet. :eek:

Dr. McCleary actually had two cocktails in the book:

Ketogenic Cocktail
1 to 3 times per day
·1 – 2 tablespoons MCT oil
·1 – 3 teaspoons flaxseed oil
·50 mg EPA (eicosapentanoic acid)
Anti-Excitatory Cocktail
2 times per day
·400 mg magnesium
·75 mcg huperzine A
·5 mg vinpocetine
·10 mg thiamin
·50 mg GABA
·1 g taurine

1 mg melatonin at bedtime

I can't find the MCT oil, so I've been taking the second cocktail for about 3 days now. Not sure if that would help you, but it might be worth a try. And, I think it might take several weeks (4 - 8?) before any benefits show up.

Sounds like you're in worse shape than I am. I hope you get things straightened out soon.

[BawdyWench]

OK, here are the results from some quick research.

According to "Dr. Atkins' Vita-Nutrient Solutions" book:

Taken along with folic acid and boron, vitamin A contributes to minimizing hot flashes and other menopausal symptoms.
Daily doses of 400 -1,200 IU of vitamin E can trigger the release of a little estrogen from fat cells, thereby serving as a natural version of estrogen replacement therapy.
Hot flashes, night sweats, and other menopausal symptoms diminish for women who use gamma-oryzanol regularly. Depending on the study, up to 85 percent of the supplement takers noticed a benefit. In those studies effective dosages ranged from as little as 30 mg per day to as much as 300 mg.
The nutritional therapy should be centered around large doses of folic acid as well as the hormone precursors pregnenolene and DHEA.He goes on to say that the following are the MOST important:

Folic acid: 20 - 60 mg
Boron: 6 - 18 mg
Pregnenolene: 30 - 60 mg
DHEA: 20 - 40 mg
Essential oils formula: 3,600 - 7,200 mg
Vitamin E: 400 - 1,200 IU
B6: 150 - 300 mgHe says the following are MODERATELY important:

Vitamin C: 2,000 - 4,000 mg
PABA: 1.500 - 3,000 mg
Black Cohosh: 15 - 30 mg
Magnesium: 400 - 800 mg
Vitex extract: 1 - 2 capsules
Vitamin A: 20,000 to 40,000 IU
Calcium: 750 - 1,500 mgInteresting he mentions Black Cohosh. My capsules are 200 mg each. Yikes!

I also did some research on Black Cohosh on the internet. Here's a link from the Women to Women site (you all know how I feel about them, so take it with a grain of salt):

http://www.womentowomen.com/menopause/blackcohoshformenopausalsymptoms.aspx?id=1&campaignno=hotflashes&adgroup=ag5cohosh&keywords=black+cohosh+menopause

And here's something from the Office of Dietary Supplements:

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/BlackCohosh.asp

Both places cite 20 - 40 mg as being the standard dose. Curious why the capsules I'm taking are 200 mg. I double-checked the label, and there are no other ingredients listed.

[laughingW]

Isn't MCT oil just coconut oil? medium chain triglycerides?

[Cacky]

I'm just about finished off with the process. I can certainly identify with the night sweats, mood swings and memory loss. With the pace of my job, I refer to the memory loss as "stress induced amnesia". Or as my father used to say, "It's hell to get old!". What really worked well for me to bring the night sweats under control was taking Vitamin E with Tocotrienol. The local compounding pharmacy carries bottles of it. Dr. Christiane Northrup recommends it as a natural statin, which is what I originally took it for. But after about three weeks I noticed my nights were MUCH more comfortable! Might be something for you to try. Hang in there, this too shall pass!

[Mitra]

LaughingW, MCT isn't exactly the same as coconut oil. This is the sat fat breakdown, plus CO has a bit over 10% mono and polyunsaturates - as well as whatever micronutrients from the coconut remain. I've read (from Sally Fallon et al) that lauric acid is helpful but can't remember the details - was it antiviral? It looks as if the CO would be a much better source for that. I don't know enough to know what effect those differences have, but one practical difference is that at room temperature the MCT is liquid (my bottle was solid when it arrived in the post, so it would presumably solidify in a fridge or cool room). I first tried Dr McCleary's mix using coconut oil because I didn't have any MCT. I had to warm the coconut oil to get it to mix, then at room temperature it was like a softish paste, and was quite unpleasant to take. The MCT, staying liquid, is easier to mix and to swallow. If you took the oils separately, then I'd be happy with coconut, because its taste is fairly pleasant - it's the flax, I think, that tastes nasty.

Fat type CO/MCT
C6:00 0.6%/2% (caproic acid)
C8:00 7.5%/70-80% (caprylic acid)
C10:00 6%/18-28% (capric acid)
C12:00 45%/2% (lauric acid)
C14:00 17%/0
C16:00 8%/0
C18:00 3%/0

[laughingW]

Wow. Thanks Mitra. Now I know why I just eat my fats as they come in food. Once you start looking into that whole area it is big!

[BawdyWench]

Sorry I'm late with this, but here's a bit more about MCT vs. coconut oil. This came from the comment section of one of Dr. Mike's blogs, and he agreed with the information presented:


MCT oil is derived from coconut oil, so while the ratio of the various coconut oil fatty acids are somewhat different, consuming coconut, coconut oil, or coconut butter/spread would be a good way to get more medium chain fatty acids, though not in the specific ratios of MCT oil (plain ol’ butter is also a good source of medium chain fatty acids). Also, I have seen coconut oil in capsule form in some independent vitamin shops, so it might be worth looking around for those if you can’t take the oil straight. We’ve enjoyed more coconut in our meals with coconut milk-based sauces (Southeast Asian and Polynesian flavors, smoothies, ice cream, as well as baking with coconut flour, coconut spread, etc.) and of course using coconut oil for some cooking tasks.

I looked around my area for MCT oil and found MCT Fuel by TwinLabs. It is an emulsified liquid with ghastly orange flavor and sorbitol, making it a bit hard to consume straight. But it’s manageable in a smoothie or stirred into some water. It is usually in the “body building” section of the vitamin dept.
I haven’t been able to locate straight MCT oil locally so far, though there are lots of websites that sell it, especially at body building and weight lifting oriented nutrition sites, though one website said that any pharmacy should be able to order it for customers, as it is a medical food made by a Novartis division (but that is a very pricey option from what I found). I remember my former neighbor used this with her prematurely born child who needed a feeding tube for many years; she called it “liquid gold” because of the price and how well it worked for her very challenged child.

[BawdyWench]

Me again! I'm starting to feel a lot better today, but not sure why. Maybe it's the supplements (including the Anti-Excitatory Cocktail shown above).

Someone earlier mentioned soy. I wanted to post what Dr. Mike said in one of his blogs (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/the-brain-trust-program-krill-oil-and-menopause/):

By the way, I would encourage anyone thinking of taking soy to reduce the symptoms of menopause or for anything else to spend the time going through the soy section of the Weston Price Foundation site

The link to that section is here: http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

Since Dr. Mike often refers to this site, I would assume it's reputable. It just looks very amateurish to me, though. Is it really a source for reputable information?

[Mitra]

I think Dr Mike once said that he agreed with a high percentage of what's on the WAP site - I can't remember the number - something like 75 or 80 or 90 maybe? Anyway, most, but not all. Some of their articles are by very well respected people like Uffe Ravnskof, and Mary Enig, but there are definitely some parts that seem to take a strong line on this or that issue without offering any supporting evidence. They didn't give PP a very good review (largely because it didn't forbid soy, I think) so presumably that's one part of the site Dr Mike would not agree with. Overall, I think there's some very good stuff there, more good than bad, but like anything you read, you can't just take it all as gospel.

[BawdyWench]

So, Mitra, what do YOU think about soy? I chose not to use it (other than to finish off the protein powder I have). A friend of mine, however, uses it every day, though I'm not sure how much. She has had menopausal symptoms for 10 years now, and they don't seem to be getting any better (though who am I to say; maybe without the soy they'd be even worse).

[Mitra]

The soy question has always been quite easy for me. I didn't eat it even before I came across all the controversy, just because I don't like tofu, and I think nothing short of a nuclear explosion could put any flavour into soy beans, though I like pretty much every other kind of bean I've ever tried. I did try soy flour in my early LC days, and didn't much like that either. So, I avoid soy, but it's mostly because I don't like it, then the questions about it just reinforce that. I hardly ever use any kind of protein powder, which would be the other potential source - on the rare occasions that I do, I use a whey-based one. Because I don't like the stuff, I've not given serious attention to the arguments for and against, I'm afraid.

By the way, I'm glad you're feeling better, whatever the cause :).

[Relief]

I don't use soy and avoid it in all forms. If something even has soybean oil in it I avoid it. I just think its a bad food, unless its been femented, and most of it tastes just nasty.

glad you are feeling better, Bawdy, Me too! i think I was way over carbed without really realizing it. and then when I went "pure" I've been withdrawing!!! the fog lifted about 3 days ago. I've got energy again.

I also added D3 and krill oil. its all working together.

[BawdyWench]

As of yesterday I added Krill oil back in (had run out) and Vitamin D3 (order just arrived). I continue to feel good today. It's been a long time!

[Jeanne Marie]

I've heard Dr. E talk about D3, how is it different from plain D and where do I get it?

:confused:

[BawdyWench]

You can purchase vitamin D3 right here on PP site: http://www.proteinpower.com/product.php?id=35

Very inexpensive.

Here are some links to Dr. Eades' blogs in which he discusses vitamin D3 and how it differs from "regular" vitamin D:

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/supplements/new-york-to-dallas-and-more-on-vitamin-d/

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statins/statins-and-vitamin-d/

You can do a search on "vitamin d" in his blog and find many more references.

Hope this helps! :)

[Jeanne Marie]

I made some calls and found that Whole Foods down the street has D3 and L argentine.
I'm on my way.:D

[BawdyWench]

Just checking back in. Feeling alternately good and not so good. I've been eating 99.9% clean, but the weight is not budging. I know it takes a while, but if anything my pants are tighter than before.

I keep wondering about the hormone imbalance and weight gain. Maybe I should just not worry (yeah, right) about losing weight right now. Nothing works anyway, huh? It's just so frustrating.

Dr. Mike said in the comments section of his blog recently that he and his wife are working on a book regarding menopause and low-carb eating. It can't be published fast enough for me! I just wish he'd give us some tidibts in his blog from time to time.

I guess the only thing I can do is eat right (low carb all the way), keeping the protein and fat up and the carbs way down, and do weight training to build muscle. It's just so hard to keep that up when it seems nothing is happening. If I were only "trending in the right direction," but I'm not. I'm treading water.

[Mitra]

Bawdy, I see the book was mentioned again today (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/miscellaneous/new-book-in-the-works/), with a title now, The 6-Week Cure for the Middle-Aged Middle:

As you can see from this link to Publisher’s Weekly, the trade journal for the book biz, MD and I have a contract for a new book to be published in January 2009. (The bit about us is toward the bottom.) But our deadline to get it finished and to the publisher is April 15, which isn’t that far away. Crown is a terrific publisher and we’re tremendously excited to be working with them, but still the onus is on us to get a lot of writing done in pretty short order.

...

As to the new book, the title pretty much says it all. As people age they tend to gather weight around their midsections. And this weight is tough to get rid of. Even when middle-aged people lose a lot of weight overall, they seem to still have excess girth. It’s smaller, but it’s still there. This is a book presenting all we know about why we tend to retain this fat and how to solve this problem that’s extremely difficult for most middle-aged people to deal with.

Under our contract with our publisher we can’t expound on this book other than the brief synopsis above. As the book nears publication we can lighten up a little on these rules and comment more on the actual content. Until then, however, we’ve got to keep it pretty much under wrap. Thanks in advance for your understanding about all these issues.

[BawdyWench]

What's that I see? A glimmer of hope?

[Mitra]

I wonder if they want any pre-publication reviewers ;)?

[Shadow]

Gosh, January 2009 seems like a very distant future, doesn't it ;)?

Hmmm - I think we'd have a great review group right here :thumbsup: :nod: :D!

[BawdyWench]

Yes, please!

I've been a technical writer and editor for more than 25 years. I really do think I could help!

[Mitra]

The other day I saw a book called something like, "Surviving the Menopause without Drugs." I had a quick look, saw that it was advocating a low fat, high soy diet, and put it back. I mentioned it to my husband who looked utterly horrified and told me there was no way he'd survive the menopause if I tried to eat low fat http://4fxearth.net/phpBB2/smilies_mod/upload/57f4dd2d586b30ffbc1412a5d9214075.gif.

[BawdyWench]

Even men sometimes have a penetrating glimpse into the obvious! ;)

[cinnndy]

Great article! So that means, A low protein diet will definitely boost my libido then.. awesome!