Slow Burn by Stu Mittleman

[chip]

Stu Mittleman is an ultramarathoner. He holds records for 6-day races. His book is a training guide for distance runners. He recommends a largely vegetarian diet with absolutely no bread or pasta (heresy for a runner!) but high in alkalinizing foods like soy, nuts, green veggies and fish.

'Slow burn' is about training one's body to use fat for energy. But he never talks about ketosis. I always assumed it's one energy source or the other. Meaning the body can burn carbs or it can burn fats. He claims that by running slowly the body switches to fat-burning within the first 45 minutes. At the same time he says the body is still using carbs but only to light the fat-burning furnace.

In races I run slowly enough that I'm sure I'm using fat for energy. But when in ketosis I don't run well at all. So I eat fast-absorbed carbs like M&Ms during races. They'll give me a boost of energy but it never lasts very long.

So am I short-circuiting the fat-burning by eating candy? Is the sugar shifting me to carb-burning at the expense of fat-burning? I'm trying to eat more fats now but for a runner, it seems anti-productive. Why eat fats if it adds to the fat I'm already carrying?

[Mitra]

Chip, I don't have any experience of marathon running (and I'm intending to keep it that way) but you might find some info to help you in the link in this thread (http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1195) and in this article (http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6&d=1141961312) from the reference section of the board.

[Gabriel Guzman]

At the same time he says the body is still using carbs but only to light the fat-burning furnace.

Maybe one day the 'experts' will care to explain what they mean by 'lighting the fat-burning furnace'. They seem to use that term so loosely without actually knowing what they want to say. My question iis always... in which specific step is carbohydrate used to 'light' fat burning...

The common 'claim' that carbohydrates serve s a primer for fat burning has one important flaw. In skeletal muscle fat doesn't burn in a flame of carbohdyrate, as skeletal muscle doesn't have sufficient quantities of the enzymes needed to convert glycolytic intermediates into something that can be transported into the energy-producing organelles inside the cells. Moreover, the prodcution on a substrate of ketones (that can and will be used for energy when there is not enough carbohydrate) can occur only in the liver. Even if we think that the muscle can use glucogenic amino acids (amino acids that can be use to make glucose), it turns out that during exercise, only the oxidation of branched chanin amino acids appears to be increased. Interestingly enough, two of the three branched chain amino acids (isoleucine and leucine) are also 'ketogenic'; they can be used to make ketones, which then can be used to produce energy. So... fat indeed doesn't burn in a flame of carbohydrate...

[laughingW]

"Paleo for Athletes" is a newish book that goes all into foods and energy systems and makes the assumption that basically fat-burning is the best, yet how to fuel athletics...

I haven't read it but from the Crossfit nutrition site, sounds like it's basically low carb plus yams and roots for the extra energy needed in some athletic things.

Also, you don't say how long you gave your body to adapt to mostly fat burning?

[Dodger]

So... fat indeed doesn't burn in a flame of carbohydrate...
Gabe,

I wish someone (you?) would publish an article on this. I get tired of hearing the 'fat burns in a flame of carbohydrate' from 'experts'. It would be nice if I could have a reference to point them to.

[hawk]

Well, I eat barely 20 carbs a day and I lift weights till muscle failure 3 days a week. My movements are very slow esspecially the eccentric half of the lift. I add weight each set. I do 20 minutes of cardio intervals 3 days a week on alternate days . In three months I have gained 1.5 pounds of muscle and lost 19.9 pounds of fat. Whats burning my fat?? I think my body is trying to rebuild the muscle and burns the fat while I sleep. Is that true??

[Gabriel Guzman]

Gabe,

I wish someone (you?) would publish an article on this. I get tired of hearing the 'fat burns in a flame of carbohydrate' from 'experts'. It would be nice if I could have a reference to point them to.

Here is the reference:
Metabolic effects of the very-low-carbohydrate diets: misunderstood villains of human metabolism. (http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.org/site/pdf/Manninen-JISSN-1-2-7-11-04.pdf)

These observations have been published before but for some reason, the experts and gurus keep either ignoring them or dismissing them without refutation.

[Gabriel Guzman]

Well, I eat barely 20 carbs a day and I lift weights till muscle failure 3 days a week. My movements are very slow esspecially the eccentric half of the lift. I add weight each set. I do 20 minutes of cardio intervals 3 days a week on alternate days . In three months I have gained 1.5 pounds of muscle and lost 19.9 pounds of fat. Whats burning my fat?? I think my body is trying to rebuild the muscle and burns the fat while I sleep. Is that true??

You're not too far off. Most of the energy demand imposed to the body during weight training doesn't occur during the actual session but afterwards, provided that the session had enough intensity. Since you work until muscle 'failure', that's enough intensity. The response is to repair muscle fibers (and with excess!). That doesn't occur during the workout session but afterwards and it's a process that requires a lot of energy (protein synthesis). Since you're mostly in an aerobic situation while you're not working out, the energy demand is supplied mostly by what 'burns' best in the presence of oxygen... fat. If there is enough fat in storage to be used for energy, then that's what's used to supply the energy demand. While you sleep, well... you aren't eating! So the body can use all the fat it needs to 'rebuild' muscle at the expense of that fat being used for energy. One process (muscle repair/building) doesn't happen <i>while</i> the other (fat utilization) happens but ,i.at the expense<i> of fat utilization.

[chip]

I don't understand the idea of "lifting to failure". I can lift weights to the point of tearing muscle or tendons. How do you know you've reached 'failure'?

[hawk]

When I cannot lift one more time. Yesterday I was doing assisted tricep dips and I kept doing them until I could absolutely not push my arms up one more time. When I do leg presses I have not been able to get to the point yet because I'm 52 and am careful about my knees. I am doing sets of 12,10,8,6,12 with 235,240,245,250,235. I could still do more or add more weight but I am being careful of my knees. When I first started I could do them until I absolutely cannot press one more. The muscles will not do it. I have to take the elevator down to the first floor of the YMCA instead of the stairs because my legs won't support me going down the steps.

[hawk]

If I ate carbs or candy, my body would switch to burning the candy and not the fat. That much I DO understand.

I don't do marathons. I have a more weight lifting sprinting type muscle and not the long slow burning type muscles. I can't remember which...fast twitch vs slow twitch.

The harder I work out, the more fat I burn. The repairing of the muscle tissue keeps my motabolism up. I cannot seem to lose weight even on this lo-carb diet with out the weight training. I hope to build enough muscle to cause my motabolism to stay up so I don't gain weight and I can maintain a healthy weight for my height. Right now I weigh 157 . I am 5'5" and hope to lose 20 more pounds in the next three or four months.I've lost 23 pounds since Jan 8 and beginning this weight lifting program. I lifted before but I did not put my "all" into it.(till muscle failure) Menopause is a killer.I am just beginning into it. It seems to make me more resistant to losing weight. So I have to work hard.Even super low carb, I take 1/2 dose of blood pressure medication to keep the bottom number under 100. My current weight lifting body picture is in my public profile.

[Missy]

Hawk wrote: "When I do leg presses I have not been able to get to the point yet because I'm 52 and am careful about my knees. I am doing sets of 12,10,8,6,12 with 235,240,245,250,235."


:eek: http://bestsmileys.com/eek/7.gif :eek: http://bestsmileys.com/eek/7.gif :eek: http://bestsmileys.com/eek/7.gif :eek: http://bestsmileys.com/eek/7.gif

aMaZiNg!!!!!!!!!

[hawk]

MISSY! You silly person. :D
The main reason I put my picture in my profile was so that people would believe me when I post what I lift. At least I hope my physique reflects all the hard work I go through. I REALLY want abs now :mad: and I know I have to lose alot more body fat before they are unvieled. They're in there somewhere.:rolleyes:

[chip]

I still don't get the 'lift to failure' thing. I can lift til I don't think I can do one more rep, but then I do one more. Maybe that's the rep that causes me to tear muscle. I've torn both rotator cups that way.

I've been reading the recent posts concerning the 'carbohydrate flame'. Instead of carbs the body can use protein? A protein flame? That seems like a waste. Protein is needed for so many things in the body. But that suggests the body is not using purely fat for energy. Something is needed as a pilot. If not carbs, then protein?

Okay so the Inuit live without carbs. Anyone see the movie, The Fast Runner? It's about the Inuit pre-Columbus. I've spend the past two weeks eating almost no carbs. It's not easy. Carbs are everywhere. Rather, high fructose corn syrup is everywhere. Because of this, my daily runs have been pretty crappy. Normally I run 10 miles a day and lately I've needed to divide the run into a lunchtime hour and a second run after work. Mainly because the super-low carb diet forces me from a 8:00 pace to a 12:00 pace. I'm still not willing to eat meat though. But I've greatly increased my fat intake from stirfry veggies, nuts and seeds, olives.

[maxlharris]

Chip,

Marathons are different from weight lifting or muscle building. It's endurance exercise versus something more explosive. It's why most of the serious gym rats around here (me, hawk, doctari, others) don't do long cardio but do interval sprints.

A couple of quick thoughts:
1- If you are going to do distance running, you might want to look into a Cycled Ketogenic Diet (CKD). You can google it. You do LC with carb loading before events.

2- If you dump carbs to 40g per day, up protein to >.7g/lb of lean body mass per day, and give yourself a couple of weeks off from the running, you should see that you are able to do MORE than you could on the carbs. That's what the research says. In the first few weeks, you are not going to be fully adjusted.

3- If you're not going to eat meat, you are going to have to get your protein from somewhere. The fundamental piece of this diet is that you need to get adequate protein, based on your lean body mass.

4- Likewise, if you dump processed foods, it's actually pretty easy to dump HFCS. It's crap and you are better off just eating whole foods.

5- Lift to failure is not the same as lifting too heavy. It's basically getting to the point where you cannot do another rep without rest. It is hard. It puts strain on the muscles. I am nearly 20 years younger than Hawk, have T, and am amazed at the lifting she does.

6- On the pilot light, your body is not an oven. It's a lot more complicated than that. Gabe's post and subsequent link show me (with casual skimming) that a simple metaphor with a pilot light is just too dumbed down to explain the body. The deeper reading confirms it.

Summary advice:
1- Make sure you get enough protein.
2- Take a couple of weeks to adjust to fat/protein metabolism. Maybe a month.
3- Eat some carbs. You can have 40g/day. There's no real benefit to going to 0g.

[Gaelen]

Okay so the Inuit live without carbs. Anyone see the movie, The Fast Runner? It's about the Inuit pre-Columbus. I've spend the past two weeks eating almost no carbs. It's not easy. Carbs are everywhere. Rather, high fructose corn syrup is everywhere. ... I'm still not willing to eat meat though. But I've greatly increased my fat intake from stirfry veggies, nuts and seeds, olives.

Chip, hi and welcome. A couple of things.
First, while the Inuit live 'without carbs' to excess, they do not live entirely without carbs. Carbs *are* everywhere, and it's not all about HFCS. Many proteins, including seafood and dairy, contain carbs...and the Inuit *do* eat seafood. But living ultra-low-carb isn't easy...for me, the lack of variety would drive me nuts. Not just theorizing, here...while I can eat a cinnamon hazelnut mocha shake every morning for breakfast for loong periods of time, I can do that because the rest of the day is varied. Two years ago I had abdominal surgery to help put my cancer in remission, and my current diet is far more limited than what I was able to eat pre-surgery...believe me, it's making me nuts. Some days, I would kill to be able to eat broccoli, or asparagus, even a little! ;)

Second, I've always maintained that you can effectively follow PP as a vegetarian (yeah, I'm the vegetarian forum moderator ;) ) If you're eating dairy and/or fish, it's practically a cakewalk. But IMO, if you are eating primarily vegetarian, you can't also go ultra low carb (i.e. less than 10g ECC) for an extended period of time without a huge amount of mental energy and effort. Why waste that effort on your diet, when you have permission to eat more carbs and can devote that energy to what you really like?

All vegetarian protein sources, with the possible exception of some fin fish, have carbs...even the lowest ECC whey protein powders have a gram or two per serving. Unless you only mix them with water, coffee, or tea, you add carbs. And the reality is that you don't NEED to go 'ultra low carb' to eat a healthy PP vegetarian diet. This is a plan where you can get most of the benefits by just following the basics--30-55g ECC per day (depending on your phase of the program), getting in your minimum daily recommended protein (taking into account that you will need more due to increased activity), and limiting carb intake per meal to 7-15g ECC (depending on your phase of the program.) So get in your protein, increase your fat intake, and enjoy the healthy carbs you're getting from vegetarian protein sources like nuts, seeds, dairy, etc...you only 'need' to eat meat if you want to.

Welcome in.

[chip]

Thanks for all the replies. Yesterday I had a high-carb lunch instead of going running. After work I did a 10 mile run at 8:00 pace. This is faster than I've run in a long time.

I get most of my protein from fish as I can't tolerate dairy. Also a lot of soy. I'm careful to have protein at most every meal, ala the Zone.

[hawk]

Chip, I have no idea what that is like. I have never been able to run long distances. I was a sprinter in school and won every meet.50, 100, 200 yards. I also played girls football as a wide reciever. Intermural..girls were not allowed to do sports when I was growing up.

I rode a bike everywhere and still do. I have not been able to teach myself to breathe when I run. It exasperates me. I know this is about diet, but is there any help for that? Any suggestions?

lynn

[laughingW]

Hawk, I have a body and athletic history much like yours, and I was finally able to enjoy running (other than sprinting) with the principles in RMAX Powered Running from RMAX and also Chi Running by Danny Dreyer. They both talk about body alignment and coordination with breathing. It is very cool to add running as a skill. I still will do the minimum but I don't feel like a total non-starter any more.

Also, in talking with others, almost everyone I know who used to hate it and never do it, had some little body tweak or other to change or fix, and then running became fun and a sense of accomplishment. Even guys who had only done weight lifting and always felt a little guilty about never ever running.

Along the same lines I've heard of Pose Running but no personal experience.

RMAX link (DVD)

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/mambo/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=191&category_id=db4da61e0ca3fcee514d7512d3ff0e0b&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=0

[chip]

Chip, I have no idea what that is like. I have never been able to run long distances. I was a sprinter in school and won every meet.50, 100, 200 yards. I also played girls football as a wide reciever. Intermural..girls were not allowed to do sports when I was growing up.

I rode a bike everywhere and still do. I have not been able to teach myself to breathe when I run. It exasperates me. I know this is about diet, but is there any help for that? Any suggestions?

lynn

I took meditation classes where they stressed 'walking meditation'. I surmised if I could meditate while walking I could do the same while running.

Meditation is about turning off the myriad thoughts that bombard us daily, hourly, every minute. One method is to focus on breathing. Feel the breath filling your abdomen. Yes, you don't breathe with your abdomen but using your diaphragm to pull air into the lungs, you'll get a feeling of fullness in your belly, below the navel. Pay attention to that sensation with every inhalation and you've mastered meditation. If you can do it walking, you can do it running. That's 'running meditation'.

You'll also find your running to be less jarring that way, meaning less stress on your hips and knees. By breathing into your belly you lower your center of gravity, thereby smoothing out your pace at the same time.

[hawk]

Thanks for the link...I will check it out. I swim, I bike and I would love to enter in the mini triathalon in my little town. It comes around every August.

[hawk]

That should be easy for me Chip. I have had singing lessons and can count to 100 in one breath. Using the diaphram muscle and it is really strong . I never thought of using the same thing in running. Maybe I can start out slowly and work up to it at a slow jog.

[Gaelen]

I get most of my protein from fish as I can't tolerate dairy. Also a lot of soy. I'm careful to have protein at most every meal, ala the Zone.

Well, this ain't the Zone, Chip--so do make sure that you're truly getting all the protein that you need. ;)

[chip]

Don't diss da Zone! ;-) It starts with finding one's lean body mass. Then calculate the daily protein needs based on lean mass and activity levels. Then add carb at a ratio of 0.4 to the protein. If eating meat, even lean meat has enough fat to make the requirements. If eating non-meat protein then fat should be added.

[Gaelen]

Don't diss da Zone! ;-)

Not dissing anything here, Chip...merely pointing out that you're on a Protein Power message forum on a website owned and sponsored by the doctors who researched and wrote Protein Power, Protein Power Lifeplan, the 30-day Low Carb Diet Solution and Staying Power, along with several cookbooks. The Drs. Eadeses' focus, and the focus of this board, is on getting adequate protein based on lean body mass and activity...and on controlling carb intake at levels below what is acceptable on the Zone menu plans and on including healthy fats in your diet in excess of what is recommended on Zone menu plans. This ain't 'low fat + low carb.' ;)

It [the Zone diet] starts with finding one's lean body mass. Then calculate the daily protein needs based on lean mass and activity levels. Then add carb at a ratio of 0.4 to the protein. [/QUOTE}

My protein intake recommendations for PP are 80g/day, which puts my 'Zone' carb intake recommendations at around 32g per day no accounting for ECC--but actually close to basic PP Phase I recommendations from 1995. However, a larger or more active person who needed the maximum recommended protein amounts (138g/day or more) would have a 55g+/day carb recommendation on the Zone--nearly 15-25g more carbs per day than the Zone recommends.

[QUOTE]If eating meat, even lean meat has enough fat to make the requirements. If eating non-meat protein then fat should be added.

And enter the main difference...the Zone, in general, treats fat as something to be closely monitored and limited and avoided.

PP doesn't do that...my fat grams intake is approximately as high as my protein recommendation, if not higher. The Zone is a 40-30-30 plan based on daily caloric intake (40% carbs, 30% protein, 30% fat). If you have to make a percentage of macronutrients comparison (which is really the only fair kind of comparison between the two plans), Protein Power is more like a 45-45-10 plan: 45% protein, 45% fat, and 10% carbs--where the percentages are counted as grams of the macronutrients, NOT as calories. If you do it as calories in a 1600 calorie menu, my menus are closer to 30-60-10: 30% of calories from protein, 60% of calories from fat, and around 10% of calories or less from carbs, with any differences in amounts funnelled into protein.

The Zone is very different from Protein Power in lots of other ways...but macronutrient recommendations and limits are one of the major ones.

[maxlharris]

Chip,

I would suggest, if you want to continue your long running (10 miles at 8:00 a mile = nearly an hour and a half at steady state, something I'm not interested in, but whatever floats your house), you might look into a cycled ketogenic diet rather than PP or the Zone. Something along the lines of the CKD or TKD (you can good these) or the new TNT Nutrition plan. Granted, TNT doesn't do cardio at all, but it would seem that the carb loading would work just as well for running as for lifting.

Any rate, it's all about the end in mind, and my end doesn't have anything to do with running long distances at steady paces. FWIW, I'm told the way to build endurance and speed is to mix intervals into your distance training.

[meewolfie]

Hawk - If you are thinking of starting a running program, take a look at this Couch to 5K program from Cool Running (http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/181.shtml). I used it to get back into running shape after taking a few years off and found that it gently eases you in to increasing the time that you will spend running.

I did start with a solid base of long, energetic walks. The first few runs were a little bit frustrating - I felt uncoordinated, easily winded, etc. But after the first week or so, I really start to feel in control of my running. A good feeling to have.

Good Luck - triathlons are alot of fun!

Mary

[chip]

Chip,

I would suggest, if you want to continue your long running (10 miles at 8:00 a mile = nearly an hour and a half at steady state, something I'm not interested in, but whatever floats your house), you might look into a cycled ketogenic diet rather than PP or the Zone. Something along the lines of the CKD or TKD (you can good these) or the new TNT Nutrition plan. Granted, TNT doesn't do cardio at all, but it would seem that the carb loading would work just as well for running as for lifting.

Any rate, it's all about the end in mind, and my end doesn't have anything to do with running long distances at steady paces. FWIW, I'm told the way to build endurance and speed is to mix intervals into your distance training.

I've been a distance runner for 20 years. I do an interval workout once a week. I hope my note about doing 10 miles at an 8:00 pace wasn't braggadocio. I wanted to make the point that one high-carb meal allowed me one quality workout. I haven't had the time to look into CKD/TKD yet but I assume it's basically what I was doing with the carb meal.

I tried Zone and Atkins as ways to improve my running mainly. Zone brought by cholesterol down to 140 but running was more difficult. Then I saw Atkins on a tv interview. He appeared with one of his patients, a triathlete who went from a back-of-the-pack runner (like me) to a front-pack runner. So I bought his book. As a result, Atkins brought my cholesterol up to 280! But reading The Cholesterol Con by Colpo suggests that cholesterol isn't the demon that conventional wisdom says it is. Sheesh!

Now I'm mainly thinking I need a lowcarb/high protein diet for weight control with the idea of using carbs as a tool for better running performance. It is so depressing after several days of lowcarb to find I can't run very well. Of course, if carbs make me run better, so might crack cocaine. See the slippery slope here? (That's a joke. I notice people on a diet have little sense of humor).

I'll 'google' CKD/TKD. Thanks for the note.

Chip

[LisaS]

From what I have heard and observerd, several days of low carb can effect performance - but most people find they recover their performace after several weeks of low carb - so you have to be determined to stick it out - not spike your workout with carbs but stick it out on low carb - read some of the literature that is out there now or listen to the Phinney interview (http://hoe.kgnu.net/hoeradioshow.php?show_id=184)- esp about the long distance cyclists.

My understanding is that the CKD approach was initially and primarily developed for body builders who wanted to spike their one day of their workout with carbs to maximize their anaerobic capacy so they could depend on the glycogen to lift really heavy and make more strength gains. This manipulation to enhance performace of a specific energy system would be akin to sprints on a cycle or running. From what I have read, when the majority of the distance is going to be aerobic and not sprints, most endurance athletes that give it a chance find they are fine on low carb and fat burning on training days and even on race days.

[LisaS]

I just reread the thread. I guess for me the bottom line is this - if you think lower carb eating is the right way to eat for life, you can be assured that you can still be an endurance athlete or a strength athlete, with or without a requirement to "carb up".

[maxlharris]

My reading concurs with LisaS's. People see a performance dip in the short term, but given a few weeks (maybe several... that's more framing than substantial) you see better performance.

On my other group, there are a couple of folks who are big into cycling and swear by a little carbing up before or during. Smartees are the tool they use. I dunno about this as an approach, but the guy in CT who does 100 miles plus rides swears by it, and other people seem to buy in. Me, I think they might be onto something for selves, but might give it a try for a few weeks without. In the long run, if you're taking your carbs in right before or even during a big session, I dunno that you're going to have a problem maintaining ketosis and the "Eat My Fat" hormonal switch.

As with everything, mileage varies and we are all running our own science experiments.

[alpdiver]

Chip,

As an endurance type athlete, I think you may find some useful information on Anthony Colpo's forum at: www.lowcarbmuscle.com/forums (http://www.lowcarbmuscle.com/forums)

[hawk]

I love Anthony Colpo. He has answered alot of questions for me and e-mailed me when I ask him somthing. He is a super guy.

[chip]

Yes, I found his website informative. But don't disagree with him unless you're thick-skinned. :-)

[arc]

Yes, I found his website informative. But don't disagree with him unless you're thick-skinned. :-)

Or want to be instantly banned.

[Fredrick Hahn]

Hi Fred Hahn here Co-author of Slow Burn Fitness with the Eades. I had the same experience with Colpo. Rude, arrogant, nasty and extremely contradictive. His boo on cholesterol is good but as a person he is :thumbsdown: . I emailed him to praise his book - he never said 'thanks' and when I asked him about the exercise information in his book (which is wrong BTW) he went postal. He banned me from his site and continued to rib me without letting me defend my position. Yuck.