Rocktober 29th: The Challenge Thread

[maxlharris]

As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods, The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.

To me, this is the ultimate discussion of the metagame, the game that goes on behind the game. The principles are the game, or life, behind the scenes, behind the details. Methods are tactics, principles are strategy.

Today, I'm starting the turn of a new corner in my understanding of the principles of this eating and exercise game. The eating thing is not that hard. It's two principles, with a lot of little things around them: Carbs low + appropriate protein. The meals are the methods.

I've been less principled in my exercise, in a way, a very schooled perpetual beginner. Today was the first day that I changed that, and start exercising on principles rather than methods.

And it got me thinking. Are there other areas of life where I'm trying methods without understanding principles? I'm sure there are. So, off to find them. But first, the to do list.

Mission Critical (Limit 2):
Consultant report
Time Sheet

Nice to Have (Limit 4):
Dreamlines, 6 month, 12 months
Budget statement
Project research
Virtual Assistant

The Mission Critical stuff. If I accomplish those two things, today will be a success. The nice to have is for when I'm done with the mission critical stuff. This is a method, but it's built on principles of time management, so we're in good shape.

Rock Out!

[Rhyme'n Reason]

Exactly, Max--and by the way, thanks for your threads this month. Many of the quotes gave me food for thought throughout the day.

That's why I think I'm doing better this time around, paying attention to the principles instead of working with the "what can I eat" mentality. Yesterday I was reading over a recipe book, and it occurred to me that all the dishes that used to really tempt me just don't any more. I find myself desiring the right foods for a change.

Today will be a challenge, but I'm off to a good start--breakfast down, water started, and lunch packed. I have to teach from 6:00-7:30 this evening (after my usual school responsibilities), and then there is the viewing for the young man killed in the accident I mentioned last week. That's going to be difficult, but I need to be there.

Have a good day, all.

[Ottawa]

On track and pushing ahead with the day. My co-worker is covering everything and I'm actually catching up http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4091/iconcool5lw.gif and he's getting a little frustrated. :lol: It's a really busy day.

We had relatives up from Peterborough to see the Dali Lama and my SIL has always been concerned with low carb including med-hi fat. They now follow "The GI Diet", and exclude most fats. The fact that I IF as well had her pondering a few more questions this time but I showed her my readings, Blood Glucose never dips below 5.3 (95) even on a 23/1 day, she was astounded. A few minutes later she voiced a concern that drove her to low fat. In the hospitals that she has worked in there are lots of older "skinny people" but very few older "fat people", particularly in palliative care wards. For her, that helped assert that thin people live longer and you don't see many fat 80 year olds.

I agree with her on the fact that excess body weight definitely affects mortality but I don't believe that it comes from ingested fat. I left the Good Cals/Bad Cals book out but she did not get time to get into it. We left on friendly terms and will do the Camino Trail (sp?) with them in 2 years. They are our age and are beginning to get some joint and ligament problems that may be related to the extremely low fat way that they eat.

[Shadow]

Morning, all :). A definite 'yes' day is underway on my end.

[hawk]

Good morning. :D

Randy, I think my doctor agrees about fat so much that he fasts every wednesday and friday. I can pick him up and he is 6 feet tall.( I have) He must weigh 140.

He was chastizing me for lifting a speaker and putting it on the stage at a gig we were getting ready for and I argued that the speaker weighed a lot less than he did... and I could probably pick him up no problem... so I did. I was getting tired of being treated like a girl. Some people have predisposed ideas of what we can and cannot do, and think they should boss us around and we should obey. silly person he is.

He'll be one of those that lives till he's 100. My best friend's father died at age 101. He just wore out. One day he just did not wake up. He was still driving and still in pretty good health.(?) He drank half and half on his cream of wheat in the morning. He never watched his fat intake but he was thin.

My parents do PP. My dad wieghs 145 and is 5"10. He used to weigh 250. He looks too thin to me. My mom was trying to get rid of his omentum(belly fat) so his blood sugar would stay stable and finially lowered the fat. They won't eat things like chicken wings.(too much fat) I worry about it causing him to be depressed. He is on antidpressants after he had a stroke. I think a low fat diet causes depression (my observation and several people) and panic attacks.

[hawk]

Max, as usual, you have given me alot to think about today.

I think I am principled in the excersize part and not the food part.I used to be both in my 20's. A paradigm of health. Sheesh. I would not touch sugar with a 20 foot pole and I ran every day.I would not go to bed with out floor excersize. Things creeped in. Principles fell by the way side. weight creeped up. I won't except the age excuse.Or having kids. I weighed less after the kids than before.I started out 128# and after having them and working out to get back in shape wieghed 118#
Where did I go? Why the struggle now? Hmmmmm... I need to sit down with myself and think on this.

[gitfiddle]

Principles rather than methods? I think I can grasp that.

It's a great day! I'm running low on solid sleep because our bedroom smoke detector decided to retire at 4 a.m. and began emitting annoying beeps. I couldn't reach it, so I woke DH up (poor dear) and he disconnected it. Never did seem to get back to a deep sleep.

Protein shake for breakfast, right on-plan, lunch consists of pepperoni chips and almonds and the insides of a wrap left over from a meeting. Yes, I forgot to plan again! I'll make up for it at dinner.

Read through the Insulin and Diabetes chapters of GCBC this weekend and I'm interested to see if I will ever play around with carb goals again. Right now it doesn't seem likely.

[Gaelen]

A few minutes later she voiced a concern that drove her to low fat. In the hospitals that she has worked in there are lots of older "skinny people" but very few older "fat people", particularly in palliative care wards. For her, that helped assert that thin people live longer and you don't see many fat 80 year olds.

Hmm...well, since we're tossing around the notions of principles and methods, we have to be sure that the principles on which we're basing the theories and methods are actually true.

Your SIL maybe didn't see many older 'fat people' in hospital because by the time older people get to end-of-life care, they are not carrying the same body weight they've carried for large portions of their lives. She may have been in the wrong place to see the overweight aged population. In older living centers, whether relatively self-sufficient senior apartments, or highly supervised care nursing homes, there are plenty of fat older people. Just ask the staff members, who have to manipulate them into beds, wheelchairs, etc.

When my grandmother went into nursing care at 84 (broken pelvis from falling down the stairs, the most common 'old age' accident, secondary to her dementia), she weighed almost 200 lbs and was only about 5'4" tall. That 200 lbs was a bit less than she'd weighed for my entire life (I was around 30 at the time.) After 10 years in the nursing home, she died...weighing around 120 lbs. She literally wasted away from the long-term effects of dementia and respiratory illness on her body. She died at 94. She was overweight until just about six months to the end...and in the palliative care ward, yes, she was thin. But being thin her whole life certainly didn't help get her to 94 years old. Now being ornery might be another story... ;)

We draw conclusions about what we see, and in our heads those observations morph into truisms, principles. The problem comes when the population or situation which we are observing isn't really representative of the entire population or situation.

Being thin does eliminate or reduce risk factors for disease, which can help you live longer. But there's a theory that paleolithic man was typically pretty thin, too--and their life expectancy was less than half of what western life expectancies are these days. If you only looked at paleolithic man's life expectancy versus presumed body composition, you could easily draw the conclusion that being thin had nothing to do with living longer. :nod:

Principle-based approaches to anything are very important, and to me they are the way I can best sustain an approach. But you have to make sure the principles which define your methods are valid in the first place...

Good Mondays, everyone!

[Ottawa]

Your SIL maybe didn't see many older 'fat people' in hospital because by the time older people get to end-of-life care, they are not carrying the same body weight they've carried for large portions of their lives. ...

Being thin does eliminate or reduce risk factors for disease, which can help you live longer.



One of the best things from reading Taubes book is that you become aware of the research that was done by Keys related only to heart issues and not overall mortality. Besides being selective of the geographical selections the low fat approach actually seemed to decrease mortality from other causes.

My SIL is concerned because of a family history of heart disease and she relates it directly to body fat which is then related to ingested fat. Although I found part of the reasoning off, I have rarely seen a morbidly overweight person into their 80's.

For whatever reasons, food choices, hospital/care center food, dieing off earlier, I agreed with her "observation", there are very few fat people in these institutions in their 80's.
I just don't agree that the cause of obesity is ingested fat.

[maxlharris]

Ottawa, so it comes back to what makes people morbidly obese. It's pretty clear from GCBC that it's not dietary fat or protein. So, that's pretty much that.

[hawk]

Rock on Max....

[Anniesnan]

having a good day, so far, and plan to keep it that way.

My family was odd. My grandfather was thin, I'm guessing about 130, 5'8?
He died at 79. He ate fats and carbs. His daily breakfast was several slices of bacon, several pieces of sausage, home made home fries cooked in bacon grease, and 2 eggs. He smoked cigars and an occasional cigarette and took an occasional drink - which he hid in the lawn mower.

My grandmother was never skinny. She gained weight as she aged. I'm guessing she was probably 180ish at her heaviest (about 5'1). She had high blood pressure, had two strokes, wouldn't follow the diets the docs told her to, said she'd rather die. She lived to be 84 (If I did the math right), was relatively healthy until she was 80. She didn't smoke or drink.

My mother (their daughter) was very thin. She was 5'2 and weighed 95 lbs. She ate whatever she wanted. She loved steak. She drank occasionally. Chain smoked. She died at 49, 60 lbs, lung cancer.

My father was thin. 6' and about 185 all of his life. He ate anything he wanted. Smoked a lot, drank more. Died at 67 - no real known cause, no symptoms of anything.

What does all this mean - absolutely nothing.
Based on my observations, if I smoked, I'd be much thinner. I smoked for about 15 minutes of my life and won't take it up again.
Also, based on my observations, I'm better off long term taking after my grandmother - I'll live longer and will be able to breathe.


What I know - my body feels better, more energetic, less aches, almost no headaches, no gas, no bloating, no stuffed to the gills and can't move feeling when I follow Protein Power, eating any good fats I want, not counting calories.

[Ottawa]

A YES.
A bands workout followed by heavy weights.

Total: 1374 IF: 22/2
Fat: 86
Carbs: 68 - 39 = 29 ECC
Fiber: 39
Protein: 133

Got out the easel tonight and began to work with water colors again for my creative thing.

[hawk]

Well, my grandma was a a smoker drinker when she was young...So was grandpa.(moms) She was heavy on top tiny on the bottom.She should have had a breast reduction. It ruined her back. Each day as she aged, she had to put her neck in traction for a certain amount of time to relive the pain. She lived till she was 86 on fried chicken and fresh salads and a million other things. She was an incredible cook.She fried alot of stuff. She ran and owned a truck stop for while. She loved life. grandpa was the same died at age of 75. Both of them wre ball room dancers and had lots of parties.Both gained wieght in their stomachs.
My dads parents were thin. They gardened and hunted and canned their own food grandma died from a botched gall bladder surgery at 72 . She was allergic to everything...(guess who I take after). and grandpa died from a heart that just got tired at 86.. He used to pick up this huge rock in the yard every day.( I'm talking huge) His biceps were so big that they touched his wrists.He was a scary man. A train electrician. I am glad my father did not take after his personality.

One set of my great grandparents (moms grandparents) owned a farm in Michigan. Great grandma and grandpa had 21 children.( same parents, one set of twins..) My grandfather was #6 of the 21. . They worked hard. They were English. Daisy was my grandmas name. She lived to be 96 years old. Sharp as a tack. She could remember all our names. My great grandpa died before I remember him I believe he was 75.We had huge family reunions.