Invitation to critique/comment my cholesterol results

[honeybunny]

Hi there,

I had my cholesterol tested today.

total:247
HDL: 50
LDL:187
Triglycerides:50

here are my results 2 years ago on the anabolic diet
total: 252
HDL:73
LDL:172
Tri's:34

44 y/o female. bodyfat around 21/22 %
At the moment I am doing a diet according to John Berardi's rules. Protein about 150 gr a day and carbs stay around 80 gr a day.

I am a little puzzled about the numbers since I don't think they are that good. I train hard (olympic weightlifting) and do high intesity training for about 3 or 4 times a week. Sometimes kettlebells, many times hill sprints.

What can I improve?
I welcome all comments!

Thanks so much in advance.:)

[laughingW]

What can I improve?
Different mix of recovery and activity maybe.

How are the workout sessions split up? Do you do Oly on the same days as hill sprints? Your HDL going down says to me that catabolism is going on and maybe it's from the mix of activity versus recovery.

Are your goals about your cholesterol numbers? That's kind of an iffy thing since they don't mean much. Although your HDL going down, I wouldn't like that either.

[honeybunny]

You might be right. I am trying to lose some bodyfat right now and since that's not easy for me I am doing some extra HIIT as a 2nd workout on a day.
I lift 4 times a week. Oly lifts and some regular weights. I train kb 3 times a week and usually on those days I do a second workout. Allthough it doesn't always workout that way because I do this during lunch hour at work and it has to be a day that I can fit that in.
I take one day of complete rest.

Just one more thing. I sleep about 8-9 hrs a night. I keep my workouts short. About 45 minutes average.

[maxlharris]

Reduce carbs further, to 40-50g per day.

[laughingW]

What does your intuition say?

Max I'm not so sure about reducing the carbs further. Note there is sugar-and-glycogen burning exercise, 6 days out of 7. If she goes that low of carb, the sugar sources are only from the excess protein and carb, and how fast does glycogen get filled up again from the protein? I honestly don't know.

I was just reading Mike O'Donnell "Is Your Exercise Keeping You Fat" and it seems like your body is saying you might be doing a volume/frequency/intensity that is net catabolic to your system.

PS I would so love to be where you are. Close on the BF and what a great work capacity. Sigh (still carrying a lot of BF and a slow loser also)

So, given that I've never been where you are... on the exercise side I would try changing the frequency/intensity. More low-or-no intensity days just to see if you can give the fat-burning systems more time on stage.

On the food side, personally too much protein can stop weight loss for me. Did you ever try 1 gm per pound of LBM, and filling in the rest of your energy needs with fat instead of carb?

[Jake]

While you are losing weight, your HDL will fall and your trigs will go up. Your fat cells are dissolving by dumping stored fats into your blood stream.

The solution is to not test your cholesterol until your weight stabilizes.

[maxlharris]

Jake: untrue. Falsified by personal observance and too many stories to ignore.

Cutting volume of work, and working smarter rather than higher volume would probably be a good idea. Of course, there is only discussion of frequency, not volume, so hard to say if you're overtraining, but based on frequency, you probably are.

[Jake]

MaxlHarris:

I can say with absolute certainty that if your your HDL falls and your trigs go up during weight loss it is because your fat cells are dissolving by dumping stored fats into your blood stream. Both Dr. Eades and Dr. Davis have written about this.

You are correct in that it does not affect everyone's blood levels in the same way.

[lczeledoc]

I think that what Jake says makes sense. But I'd think it would be more applicable to someone that has a lot of stored and just started to diet, which is clearly not Honeybunny's case.
The lipid values in the two readings are very close, which might just be within the lab error range.
I think Honeybunny's best stategy for losing the little extra fat would be to lower carbs to 30 gr/day and cut back on the amount of exercise.

[honeybunny]

I just wrote this lengthy answer and it disappeared! :mad:
I'll type it into a word doc first then I'll get back here.

[maxlharris]

MaxlHarris:

I can say with absolute certainty that if your your HDL falls and your trigs go up during weight loss it is because your fat cells are dissolving by dumping stored fats into your blood stream. Both Dr. Eades and Dr. Davis have written about this.

You are correct in that it does not affect everyone's blood levels in the same way.
I would be surprised if you could say that about this person in this case with absolute certainty, Jake. Because not even a reckless weirdo like Anthony Colpo would say that.

What you actually said, however was this:
While you are losing weight, your HDL will fall and your trigs will go up.
Oddly, during my first 30 lbs drop, my HDL was +2 (from 56 to 58) and my trigs were -25 (from 75 to 50). This was not after a maintenance period, as you suggest would be prudent.

I have now falsified what you have said. Based on personal experience. Revision?

[Roadstr]

Hi there,

I had my cholesterol tested today.

total:247
HDL: 50
LDL:187
Triglycerides:50

here are my results 2 years ago on the anabolic diet
total: 252
HDL:73
LDL:172
Tri's:34

44 y/o female. bodyfat around 21/22 %
At the moment I am doing a diet according to John Berardi's rules. Protein about 150 gr a day and carbs stay around 80 gr a day.

I am a little puzzled about the numbers since I don't think they are that good. I train hard (olympic weightlifting) and do high intesity training for about 3 or 4 times a week. Sometimes kettlebells, many times hill sprints.

What can I improve?
I welcome all comments!

Thanks so much in advance.:)
If your thoughts are that your cholesterol and LDL are too high then I agree. Lowering your intake of saturated fats will lower your total cholesterol. You can increase your mono and poly fats without raising cholesterol or LDL. Here is a link (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/fats-full-story/index.html) to a very good article with references to studies. Go with published studies and come to your own conclusion.
Hope this helps you improve where you think you should.

[honeybunny]

Thanks so much for all the replies. It's very helpful.

I lowered my carbs to 50 gr per day or less. I also upped my calories a bit. I went to assess my bodyfat and I am 170 pounds at 20% bf. My lean mass is a little under 140 pounds. The guy who did it said I should not go under bodyweight X 10 for calories so I need to take in about 1700 calories a day. Especially considering my high volume of training. So maybe it's true that my recovery was poor.

Don't know about fat loss and tri's and hdl's changing, I really don't know anything about that. The only thing I can do is have my cholesterol tested again after I am on a steady body fat% for a while (goal is 13%maintenance)

About my workouts. At this moment I do lactate workouts since my growth hormone is poor. So my workouts are short but very intense. Usually I reach a heart rate of 173, I cannot get it much higher anymore (44 yr). When I had my cholesterol reading I just stared doing 2 workouts a day for 2 days a week, so I don't think it wil affect the reading much but I could be wrong. Now a week later I must say that I can already see the results of doing a second workout here and there.

I think I should not worry about the cholesterol too much right now. I am going to test again ones my weight is stable, probably in 6 months or so.

Oh yes and what about eggs? I hear it's a non issue but I don't know, I eat them every day. For the rest, my sources of protein are very lean. Lots of venison and bison (grass fed) then also some chicken and very little protein powders.

Thanks again for all your input!

[laughingW]

Have you ever been at 13% maintenance? What was your routine then?

If you like to go intense once or twice every day, I can see where at 44 maybe that is not enough recovery time. Have you heard of, or tried, a 4x7 protocol? (from Sonnon the clubbell guy)

Day 1: strength (your Oly)
Day 2: met con (lactate) (kbs I assume)
Day 3: joint mobility only (lubricates all the joints, rest day)
Day 4: yoga/compensatory exercise, to compensate for the imbalances brought on by the other exercises, including metabolic

This can blast off fat as well as any other and has the advantage of cycling all the kinds of things you like to do, with adequate recovery built in.

Wouldn't worry about the eggs. And I think sat fat is a better fuel than unsaturated (long story).

[maxlharris]

Might be too lean (diet wise) for the program... game muscle meat is very lean. Need to be cracking bones for marrow, or eating some brain, or liver or something if you want to be a cave person. That's how they rolled.

I recently saw a Scientific American on how man came to North America {controversial and interesting} and how scientists are sorting that out. Part of it dealt with mammoth, and proving that these pre-Clovis people were killing them and eating them. Alan Alda (the host) was asked to crack a beef leg bone, to demonstrate how these pre-Clovis people would have cracked the mammoth bones to get to the marrow. At any rate, the method for cracking the big bones was to put the long part on a rock, and hit it really hard with another rock, from the top. Turns out, it leaves a particular percussion scar on the bone, that you can see in these broken mammoth bones. Animals, even the large animals of the time (Cave bears and sabertooth tigers) couldn't leave percussion scars like these, only a hammer type pound when it's balanced on some kind of anvil. Rock on rock, with bone in the middle. Man (or some stone hammer and anvil beast).

If they're getting at the center of the bone, they are getting at the marrow, and if they're getting at the marrow, they're eating it. Like true gourmands. Not exactly, but yeah.

Any rate, I have widely digressed. Lean muscle is good food, but if you're gonna walk a paleo walk, you gotta eat the fatty parts of the game animals, the marrow, the brains, the sweetbreads and the liver. Maybe the eyes. Other offal.

Or you can just cook them with butter or cream sauces.

[laughingW]

Agree with Max, yes, how did I miss that lean protein.
You have to be burning a lot of that protein for fuel because if it's short workouts is that much needed for protein turnover?

I bet if you had 120 g protein, 50-70 g carb, and the rest in sat and mono fat, you would start really burning it faster. You would make more fat-burning enzymes wowie zowie.

[honeybunny]

I bet if you had 120 g protein, 50-70 g carb, and the rest in sat and mono fat, you would start really burning it faster. You would make more fat-burning enzymes wowie zowie.

This is about what I do now. Just try to stay under 50 gr of carb, about 150 gr of protein but the rest is fat. Just not animal fat obviously. You think I should eat more animal fat? I am really not going to eat brains and liver, sorry about that!

Are we talking pure fat loss here or is the high cholesterol still taken in the equation?
I think Roadstr's point was that I should lower intake of saturated fats. But LaughinW and MaxHarris say the opposite.

Because of my high cholesterol I am a little afraid to go all out with the animal fat. Most of my fats now come from oils, nutbutters, avocado's etc.

[laughingW]

You think I should eat more animal fat?
Did you know that quality animal fat is something like 40% monosaturated? the same as olive oil.

But yes, sorry, I forgot you were worried about your total cholesterol number too. You might as well use the good fat you're comfortable with.

If you're only getting 1700 calories that is pretty close to BMR and starvation. Doesn't Berardi say, feed a lot and work a lot? Your body is conserving maybe. Almost starvation rations and hard work every day.

I am really not going to eat brains and liver, sorry about that!
Oh man, you're missing out. Braunschweiger and hot dogs, yum.

[maxlharris]

I go back to the training volume issue.
Eat more or work less.

As to fats and cholesterol profiles:

1- dietary fat is like 5% of your cholesterol profile. Getting things working smoothly in your body will take care of whatever your genes will allow.

2- Beef fat, for instance, is more like 45% monounsaturated. The really good stuff.

3- Even with Saturated fat, not all sat fats are created equally. Some will raise HDL. Some will raise total cholesterol. Some will lower LDL. Just as mono and poly unsaturated fats are not as simple as mono and poly (Omega 3 is clearly different from Omega 6 which is different from Omega 9... Get more 3, less six, more 9, for most Americans), neither is Sat as simple as "sat is bad."

Clearly, this is your science experiment. If it's not working for you, it's probably time to change something. Things I've suggested might be the problem:
lack of dietary fat
lack of total calories
lack of recovery in workout schedule.
Over work in workouts.
A couple of others:
Your cortisol level might be high. The lifting will increase it. If you do not have down time, you will keep your levels high and you will neither lose weight nor improve your cholesterol numbers. Some relaxation might be in order.

I'm not suggesting you should eat liver, brains or sweetbreads (all of which have culinary charms) or even marrow cakes (YUM!), but I am suggesting that eating nothing but muscle meat is not how a hunter gatherer or a paleo human ate. Or at least, it's not how a fit alpha paleo human ate. They ate things that were high in animal fat with their muscle meats. They weren't cracking those bones because it was fun (it was clearly not). They were getting to the good stuff.

[Roadstr]

This is about what I do now. Just try to stay under 50 gr of carb, about 150 gr of protein but the rest is fat. Just not animal fat obviously. You think I should eat more animal fat? I am really not going to eat brains and liver, sorry about that!

Are we talking pure fat loss here or is the high cholesterol still taken in the equation?
I think Roadstr's point was that I should lower intake of saturated fats. But LaughinW and MaxHarris say the opposite.

Because of my high cholesterol I am a little afraid to go all out with the animal fat. Most of my fats now come from oils, nutbutters, avocado's etc.
Hey honeybunny...Here at PP, the theory goes that if you lower carbs below 40 grams per day then the saturated fats are pretty much a non issue, i.e. don't think about them. The same goes for LDL, it doesn't matter because they are not the type that cause problems because your triglycerides are so low... many don't get the type of LDL measured because they assume it's the good kind.
Some folks find that PP improves cholesterol readings and that's especially true with those that exercise less (or less vigorously for whatever reason) and have more body fat to loose.
If PP isn't improving your cholesterol numbers then I would suggest using natural foods and supplements that can work in your favor. Oat bran and plant sterols will lower your cholesterol. Many will argue lower cholsesterol will kill you sooner than latter. Me, I don't think a cholesterol of 180 and LDL of 80 is so bad. You should be able to keep your HDL above 60 with your exercise and you could even reach the magic 1:1 HDL:LDL number!
I'm not saying lower cholesterol numbers will help you live longer, but if it gives you a better quality of life along the way you may have a smoother ride.