Question about dairy

[SandyHanson]

For the most part I find this WOE fairly easy. Oh, I'm not saying I'm never tempted, usually when we're away from home and there's something right in front of me, or offered by the host(ess). That's when I have a difficult time resisting. But otherwise, not bad.

I just realized, though, that I've been following PP for about a year now, and although I have lost some weight (and made progress in some other health areas), I haven't lost as much as I "should" have or want. I haven't been calculating food values lately, but when I did on a regular basis, everything was usually within the ranges that I had set for myself: ECC usually 20 - 30, protein 80 - 100, calories ~1500 and often less.

I know there are quite a few people who seem to have difficulty losing if they eat nuts and/or dairy. I've always assumed that was because of excess calories, but I've always calculated them in.

Nuts won't be a problem for me. I've already put all that I have on hand in the freezer. I'll only use them, and no more than 1 ounce a day, in recipes, e.g., 1 minute chocolate cake, and then only occasionally.

The dairy will be difficult, but I'll try to see what happens. But, here's my question:
Can the whey protein powders cause the same kind of stalls that other dairy does?

I may, ultimately, have to try several different approaches. I know aspartame can cause me not to lose, or even to gain. I may have to give up all artificial sweeteners for a time. Or even try Dr. Mike's all meat diet for a while. And since I'm below sedentary as far as activity goes (except for my daily exercise), perhaps I need to reduce my calories to something like 1200? Any suggestions or advice will be very welcome.

[deirdra]

I don't have a problem with nuts (I only eat unsalted plain nuts from the bakery aisle), but I do have a problem with the casein protein in most dairy and in whey protein powders. So I limit myself to a total maximum of 4T of very high fat / minimal casein dairy (butter + heavy cream) per day. Since I also have problems with soy, I have had to give up protein powders entirely and only eat real, unprocessed foods. Instead of protein shakes for breakfast, I now eat eggs & butter or a lunch/dinner-like meal.

In the first half of this decade on LC (and the previous 30 yrs on HC diets) when weightloss stalled, I cut back more on calories and that just slowed my metabolism, decreased my body temp by 2 degrees F & made me feel like a sloth, and the hunger & deprivation led to binges. This time (since Aug 2005) I made sure I ate at least 1450 cals/day and usually 1700-2000, and miraculously my metabolism picked up and is now "normal" as long as I eat under 40g ECC, my minimum protein requirement (based on PP) and the rest is fat, with no grains, no soy, no sugar, no processed foods and minimal high-fat dairy. I eliminated them one at a time and journaled every day to keep track of symptoms. And I tried adding back things to see if I could tolerate them or not.

YMMV, but I came up with these amounts & exclusions through years of trial & error & tweaking of my diet. I found that foods I craved or felt like eating more of when not hungry were the ones I'm intolerant of; they were causing my joint pain, asthma & stuffed sinuses, blurred vision, fatigue, etc.

[amdawson]

I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but I have noticed slower weight loss when I have a daily protein shake. My shakes usually consist of a scoop of Grow! brand powder, a handful of berries, some half and half, water, and a packet of stevia powder. So I haven't tried to figure out if the protein shake just put me over the top on carbs (due to the 10 or so in the recipe), calories, or sweetener, or something else, but it definitely seems to slow me down, especially after a week or so of having a regular, daily shake.

I had a lot of luck with the all-meat diet for 4 or 5 days to kickstart me.

So just be sure you aren't letting yourself go hungry, be sure you get enough protein (count up the grams!) and count those carbs! If you don't count, they can sneak in! And drink plenty of water. Following that recipe always works for me to break a stubborn stall.

[Frank Hagan]

80 to 100 grams of protein? When I did my calculation for the protein I needed from PP, I came out at 80 -90 grams based on my lean body mass calculation (I'm a male, 5' 10" tall and put in "moderately active" for the calculation). You might want to recalculate the lean body mass you are feeding with the protein to make sure its correct.

The other thing is I'm not sure how much weight you should lose eating low carb. While there are some dramatic stories out there, I think a 1 to 2 pound loss per week is fantastic ... the trend line is down and the weight is coming off.

[maxlharris]

...but I do have a problem with the casein protein in most dairy and in whey protein powders...
100% whey powders do not have cassein, unless you add dairy to them. Mix them with water, and if you truly do have a cassein allergy, you can have your protein shake and drink it too.

Very few people have whey allergies, but it is not unknown.

I just realized, though, that I've been following PP for about a year now, and although I have lost some weight (and made progress in some other health areas), I haven't lost as much as I "should" have or want. I haven't been calculating food values lately, but when I did on a regular basis, everything was usually within the ranges that I had set for myself: ECC usually 20 - 30, protein 80 - 100, calories ~1500 and often less.
There is no amount you "should" have lost.
How much did you actually lose? It is hard to see if you are on track for loss without knowing some actual numbers. Where were you at the start of your year, where are you now? And how compliant were you, actually? 85%, 90%, 95%?
If it's not 85% of days and 90% of meals, there really shouldn't be much of an expectation for results.

I know there are quite a few people who seem to have difficulty losing if they eat nuts and/or dairy. I've always assumed that was because of excess calories, but I've always calculated them in.
Nuts have some issues.
1- very high in calories so a little fudge on the measurement yields a wide swing in caloric intake.
2- some nuts are fairly carby (for a low carb regime where you get 7-10 at a sitting), so again, a little fudge can swing fairly wide. Even if you buy that some nut carbs don't count.
3- Some nuts are VERY HIGH in sodium, which causes some people to retain some water. Nuts don't stop their fat loss in the macro sense, but they do hold some water for a day or two, so a poor measurement (the scale) causes correlation (I ate nuts and scale went up), which leads to faulty belief in causation (Nuts stall me).

Nuts won't be a problem for me. I've already put all that I have on hand in the freezer. I'll only use them, and no more than 1 ounce a day, in recipes, e.g., 1 minute chocolate cake, and then only occasionally.
I do not know many people who lose while eating things made with grain and artificial ingredients like 1 minute chocolate cake. Maybe very occasionally (like in that 10% of meals that are not considered on program). The recipe as listed on this site claims 1.26 ECC, not counting 3T of splenda. 3T of Splenda is ~1.5g of carbs, doubling the recipe. But really, what are you eating when you are eating this? A lot of splenda.

The dairy will be difficult, but I'll try to see what happens. But, here's my question:
Can the whey protein powders cause the same kind of stalls that other dairy does?
If you make your whey protein powder up with heavy cream, then you are running very high on calories, and if you are a not very tall woman with a not very fast metabolism, this can be a problem. If you make your 100% whey protein powder up with water, then probably not, unless you have a whey allergy.

I may, ultimately, have to try several different approaches. I know aspartame can cause me not to lose, or even to gain. I may have to give up all artificial sweeteners for a time. Or even try Dr. Mike's all meat diet for a while. And since I'm below sedentary as far as activity goes (except for my daily exercise), perhaps I need to reduce my calories to something like 1200? Any suggestions or advice will be very welcome.
Reducing calories doesn't generally work, unless you are really overeating.

Some sample menus would be very useful in figuring out what your problem is. More data on your weight would as well. Are you actually stalled, or just not losing as fast as you would like.

[SandyHanson]

Deirdra: Thanks for your input. I think I, too, will have to use some trial and error to figure out what's going on.

Amdawson: I agree - measure, weigh, and count, count, count!

Frank: My protein requirement from PPLP based on my height and weight, was 27 g/meal, or a minimum of 81 g total minimum per day. I would be happy with 1 - 2 lbs a week loss - it just doesn't seem to be happening.

Again, thanks for all your responses!

[SandyHanson]

WOW, Max. What a comprehensive response! I guess I’m not really surprised, but thanks.

Let’s see . . . I can’t tell you how much weight I’ve lost – I haven’t been on a scale since last October. (can’t stand on one). I’m going by measurements, the consensus seems to be that is a better gauge anyway. My waist measurement has not gone down since 10/28/08; my “rolls” above and below my waist seem to have gotten smaller, but I don’t have calipers, so am only going by feel. I have gone down one clothing size, but just barely.

Compliance: As far as low carb goes, I’m better than 95% compliant. I only rarely go over 40 ECC and am generally below that. When I do go over, it’s usually for just one meal, e.g., lunch or dinner out. I will have days when my calories are higher than usual, maybe as high as 2100, but I’ll also have days when they’ll be as low as 1000; both of these extremes seem to be caused by meat choices (fattier vs. leaner).

The chocolate cake was just an example of how I use nuts. I use ¼ cup (approx 1 oz) of ground nuts along with an egg as a base for breads, cakes, etc.

I only do shakes occasionally, but do use protein powder along with ricotta cheese for a few things that I do fairly frequently. I don’t snack on cheese a lot, but do use it in various recipes.

What I’m experiencing my not exactly be a stall, but I do feel I’m progressing at a snail’s pace, and would like to speed things up a bit.

I generally use raw, unsalted nuts, so sodium shouldn’t play a part.

Today’s food:
B – 3 oz corned beef, 2 fried eggs
L – 4 oz pot roast
S – 5.3 oz pot roast, 1/3 cup peas, tsp butter
Sn- 1 SF Popsicle, and (notwithstanding what I said in my original post) 1 oz pecans

Totals:
Calories: 1498
ECC: 9.8 or 7.8 depending on whether I count the sugar alcohols in the Popsicle
Protein: 116.1

This is not atypical for me. Protein is higher than usual. I sometimes have 2 oz or so of fruit with breakfast. I don’t eat peas very frequently, but when I do I keep the quantity low.

Thanks again for your input and suggestions.

[maxlharris]

This is controversial for some people on here, but I believe this more and more, day by day.

Bread substitutes (and other substitute baked goods) are not really compatible with the lose phase of this program.

Without knowing your weight, or your measurements, it would be hard to figure what your protein needs are. The day described above strikes me as a little light.

If you are a very heavy woman, you might have a very slow metabolism, and it might take a bit of time for this to work some of your kinks out.

I am a scale person. I understand the flaws of the scale, but it is a hard number, which my pants or my wedding ring don't give me. They give me a more subjective way of looking at things, but the scale, over time, tells me a lot that pants won't. Not pushing for the scale, but the big thing I like about the scale is that I can weigh today, and I can weigh in a week, a month, 6 months, or a year, and I can point to progress (or lack thereof). If you can't do a scale, maybe a photographic record would work.

I watch Ruby on TV, sometimes (other times, I cannot take her voice, her accent, her Om My God, or her friends). If you look at the last episode from last season, when she was down maybe 95 lbs, she looked like a very very heavy person. But if you look at her face from the end of the season to the beginning, major difference. If she didn't have the scale, she could go to the video tape and take a look at her face.

As always, it's your science experiment. I have ideas about how to run them, but they aren't necessarily better fits than how you're going to run it.