Beating hunger in critical pre-maintenance stage?

[amdawson]

Hey everyone,

Well, I'm another PP success story, with 45 pounds lost. But I've been stuck for appx 3 months at the same weight.

Now I'm not going to post menus (sorry, jl), because I know a big part of the stall is the fact that I fudge on carbs too much. So it's completely understandable why my weight is staying the same.

But I have about another 20 pounds to go before my body fat and BMI are in the right area (along with my body measurements/mirror test).

The problem is that if I stay on plan as far as carbs go, and eat in a way that the scale drops pounds steadily, I have begun to feel as if I'm back on the ol' low-calorie/low-fat diets - I'm hungry all the time!

So then I end up eating something I shouldn't just because it satisfies the hunger, and the scale gets stuck again.

I didn't experience this problem for the first 45 pounds, but now it seems that if I eat enough food to be satisfied, I don't lose.

I said I wouldn't post menus, but my typical day goes like this:
breakfast: 4 or 5 slices of bacon, 2 oz of cheese, coffee with half/half, stevia packet.
mid-morning: diet soda or coffee
lunch: appx 8 oz of protein -- lunchmeat, leftover steak, burger, etc. 2 oz of cheese, diet soda, and some veggies..either a pickle or some broccoli usually
dinner: 6-8 oz of protein, maybe some cheese, sometimes some veggies, occasionally a couple stalks of celery with natural peanut butter. and of course, a diet soda.

Looking at this, it's easy for me to see two things: why I get hungry, just not enough food here. Although if I eat cheese at all 3 meals, that gets me to 600 calories or so just from cheese. The other thing is that there's obviously too much diet soda/artificial sweetener.

But either way, I'm just looking for specific pieces of advice on how to get my weight loss going again without restricting my food intake even more. I'm getting frustrated with being stuck at the same weight, but being hungry (which eventually causes me to have a carb binge just to satisfy the hunger).

Thanks in advance.

[Frank Hagan]

Try replacing the soda with water and see what happens. I stall if I have too much in the way of sweeteners (and I also have cravings ... like an alcoholic, I'm better off if I abstain completely).

Different foods may be able to satisfy your hunger better. I find if I mix up the foods I eat, I can stay on plan easier. For me, there's a psychological thing happening when I get bored with the food choices ... what used to satisfy me all of a sudden doesn't any more.

[amdawson]

Try replacing the soda with water and see what happens. I stall if I have too much in the way of sweeteners (and I also have cravings ... like an alcoholic, I'm better off if I abstain completely).


I haven't seen any scientific evidence, but I'm 100% artificial sweeteners can induce insulin secretion. I've heard a lot of people say it, and too much seems to stall me too. And the cravings.....right with ya, man.

Any idea how long it will take the cravings to subside if I quit? If I remember right, the carb cravings slowed down pretty well in about 2 or 3 weeks when I started PP. I'm sure I had fewer sweeteners back then too.

[Frank Hagan]

I cut out diet soda and cream and sugar in my coffee at the same time (I had been using 4 teaspoons of sugar in a tall travel mug, so I was really loading it in, then using an equal amount of Splenda). I had a rough three days, but then it wasn't so bad. I think within a week or two I was OK with the new routine.

Its tough if you eat out, though. The fast food places don't serve water, or if they do, they give you a little 4 ounce cup to fill. I switch to iced tea, unsweetened, when we are someplace like El Pollo Loco.

[isisrose]

What about some snacks during the day, when you are hungry. And sorry but I don't consider diet soda or coffee a snack (I know coming from a Seattleite that should be sacrilege).

Calories don't just matter if there are too many (when you are getting smaller) but also when there are too little. Your body thinks there's a famine out there! Then it goes into survival mode to hold on to every calorie it can get.

If you are hungry, you may just be for a reason EAT! Just eat in accordance to plan. Maybe then you won't be craving the bad stuff, pretty hard to do on a full belly.

[maxlharris]

If you are hungry, you should probably up the fat or the protein in your diet. If you are keeping your carbs at a ketogenic level, you should not get hungry. Not with regular meals.

I'd say that your breakfast is a little protein light. Boil up some HB eggs on Saturday. Have one or two with your breakfast. Two will roughly double your AM protein. Should work to satisfy you better through the day. Breakfast protein, imo, is key, key, key. You get a bullwhip effect (http://www.12manage.com/description_lee_bullwhip_effect_supply_chains.html ) from improper breakfast. Very very important to get the protein set right at breakfast.

[amdawson]

yeah, i think i remember other times when i got more protein at breakfast, and i was less hungry then. i'll add some proteins at breakfast and see how that goes, then maybe up the overall protein intake with some snacks if i'm still having problems.

i'll have to trust that doing this right will result in weight loss eventually, but it may take my body a few days to adjust when it realizes that the "famine" is over.

[isisrose]

i'll have to trust that doing this right will result in weight loss eventually, but it may take my body a few days to adjust when it realizes that the "famine" is over.

It will, and eating more often and more protein in the morning you will most likely find to be a really big boost!

[amdawson]

Well I hope you all are right. I've added some protein, mainly at breakfast, to my daily intake, and I've definitely noticed more satiety. I've also been trying to lower caffeine and diet soda.

BUT, as I mentioned before, eating enough to satisfy my hunger seems to cause me to gain weight. I'm up appx 1.5 pounds in the last few days, even though I'm certain my carbs are in line and I'm not eating all that much more.

Hopefully this is just an adjustment to the extra protein and I'll start losing soon. I'm planning on keeping this up for another week or two to see if it leads to results. I hope I'm not stuck with a catch-22, though (be hungry and miserable and lose, or be satisfied and gain/stall).

[maxlharris]

If you are not currently logging with Fitday, it might be a good idea.

I only suggest because of language like: "even though I'm certain my carbs are in line and I'm not eating all that much more." If you are logging with something like Fitday, (and measuring accurately), you will know if you are eating more, or that your carbs are in line.

You'll also have a decent data set for sharing, vis-a-vis meals and construction.

[deirdra]

Cutting out cheese and processed meats (bacon, lunchmeat) was what worked for me. The weight came off and I can always find reall meat that is cheaper than lunchmeats and cheese.

[amdawson]

oh the blasphemy you speak of, the giving up of bacon. NEVER!

well for now adding some more protein during the day, especially at breakfast, really did the trick. i think it got my body out of the "starvation" mindset and got my metabolism going again, and also, it helped me avoid binging on carbs since my hunger was satisfied. a good ol' one-two punch.

we'll see how this goes as i approach goal, may have to make further refinements as i get there.

[maxlharris]

Give up cured bacon for uncured bacon.
You don't lose the bacon, you actually improve it.
And you reduce the processing factor.

Win-Win.

[Frank Hagan]

Give up cured bacon for uncured bacon.
You don't lose the bacon, you actually improve it.
And you reduce the processing factor.

Win-Win.

I'm not sure I've ever had uncured bacon. Any difference in the way it is cooked, etc?

I do remember getting bacon on the farms I visited as a kid ... in those days, the farmers grew all their own food and butchered their own meat (now, they don't ... my cousins buy from the supermarket like everyone else). Everything tasted better then, but that could be my memory playing tricks on me.

[Mitra]

I've always been curious about "uncured bacon." If it's not cured, why isn't it just pork?

[maxlharris]

Having a hard time sorting through the information (or lack thereof) on the google. But near as I can tell, "cured" bacon is made with added nitrates. "Uncured bacon" is what you used to have on the farm, before anyone knew about nitrates. They are cured with celery and salt to add the sodium nitrate, rather than as an additive. As a result, they have less of the nitrate and generally a purer flavor.

I suspect it wouldn't pass the measure of someone going 100% purist (for that you'd eat pork belly, and perhaps cold smoke it yourself to make a bacon analog), but it could work if you were trying to move to Dilettante.

[Mitra]

I tend to think of any kind of salting or brining as cured, so that's why I was puzzled.

Actually, they've known about using saltpetre for curing for a while. My 18th and 19th century cookery books often use it in quantities way higher than would be permitted today.

[amdawson]

Ok, well I'm creeping up again even though I'm keeping my carbs low.

I'm going to give fitday a try for a few days and see if I can do better. I've already made a couple changes:

- Don't eat so much cheese. A 2 oz. hunk at each meal adds up to a whopping 750 calories. Might as well have a breve latte. So I'm going to try to to cut back to 3 or so oz. each day. But man, I love cheese.
- Already doing better on cutting back on diet soda/caffeine. One thing that helps is that the one vending machine that accepts a credit card at work has been sold out for a week or so.
- Experimenting with coconut oil. Adding some to the daily coffee may help jumpstart me.
- Keep calories under about 2000/day on less active days. I've been getting hungry in the late evenings lately, but I may just need to eat dinner a little later or get a little more protein/fat at dinner.

[Sharvo]

Pork belly is the cut of meat for traditional bacon (per Field Guide to Meat). Curing usually involves packing in salt or soaking in salt brine, smoking and possibly including addititives such as sweetners & spices and other preservatives such as nitrites/nitrates. Curing used to be an important part of the drying process for safely storing meats before refrigeration per Keeping Foods Fresh, Janet Bailey, oop but superb source of info.

If it is without either salt or other additives and has not been smoked, it's a slice of pork belly. Easy to see why it would be marketed as uncured bacon instead ;).

Good health,
Sharvo

[Frank Hagan]

Pork belly is the cut of meat for traditional bacon (per Field Guide to Meat). Curing usually involves packing in salt or soaking in salt brine, smoking and possibly including addititives such as sweetners & spices and other preservatives such as nitrites/nitrates. Curing used to be an important part of the drying process for safely storing meats before refrigeration per Keeping Foods Fresh, Janet Bailey, oop but superb source of info.

If it is without either salt or other additives and has not been smoked, it's a slice of pork belly. Easy to see why it would be marketed as uncured bacon instead ;).




Aren't "pork bellies" traded on the Chicago exchange? I always thought the phrase "pork belly futures" was funny ... their only future is BACON!

I tried Trader Joe's uncured bacon and found I didn't like it as much as what I'm used to, and I decided I'm definitely a "hedonist" in the PPLP universe. Give me that salt and nitrites! I next picked up a pack of cured bacon they had that promised "no antibiotics" and "no hormones" used in the source piggies (the package also advises that its against federal law to use hormones in food hogs, so I guess every pack of bacon has "no hormones"). Its pretty good, but probably not worth the extra cost.

So I'll go back to Hoffy, Oscar Meyer or some other bacon if I can find it in "thick sliced" versions.

[MichelleAkers]

I haven't seen any scientific evidence, but I'm 100% artificial sweeteners can induce insulin secretion.

Well, I would much, MUCH prefer not to believe this (I'm a Splenda junkie -- drops, not packets, so it really is zero carb).

However, a close friend who beat diabetes years ago on low carb told me he had actually checked his blood glucose levels before and after various artificial sweeteners. He said all the sweeteners he tried raised his blood glucose.

Three caveats:
*There was one he didn't try -- either Splenda or Stevia, I don't recall which.
* Blood glucose isn't insulin, though I would certainly assume the one level would predict the other.
* I have an awfully hard time believing a noncaloric substance without carbs would have a sustained metabolic effect like sugar or another actual carb.

It would sure be nice to have a better handle on this, science-wise. Seems like lots of folks find it relatively easy to shrug and essentially say, "If in doubt, throw it out," but... for me, at least, that's easier said than done. At least without feeling a pretty good degree of confidence it really is having a significant ill effect, y'know?

(Yeah, so I'm a wimp.)

-- Michelle

(Hey, maybe the Eadses address this more in the new book. One can hope!)

[SandyHanson]

You know how some people say they can gain weight just looking at food? Years ago I thought about this and wondered . . . You see a nice big piece of cake, say. It definitely seems possible that some people might have a conditioned response (remember Pavlov's dogs?) and put out some insulin just in anticipation. How much stronger that might be with a sweet (albeit non-caloric) taste. Insulin brings down blood sugar, stores fat, and makes one ravenously hungry. Just an idea, and support for those who suggest we should stay away from sweet things in general. However, I have to admit, I, too, like my Splenda!

[gitfiddle]

Well, I would much, MUCH prefer not to believe this (I'm a Splenda junkie -- drops, not packets, so it really is zero carb).

However, a close friend who beat diabetes years ago on low carb told me he had actually checked his blood glucose levels before and after various artificial sweeteners. He said all the sweeteners he tried raised his blood glucose.Michelle, when my blood sugar drops and I have no food available, one little square of sf gum will stop the process and hold me for about an hour. Every time.

It definitely seems possible that some people might have a conditioned response (remember Pavlov's dogs?) and put out some insulin just in anticipation. Sandy, I think I read that it's a fact.

I like my Splenda, too, but my doc warns me against any of those chemicals. I've cut way back and save sweet coffee for Sunday morning sipping! :tear: Usually. :o

[Frank Hagan]

I just read a study where they tested the idea of artificial sweeteners raising blood glucose levels and found, overall, that it didn't. But like all of these studies, you had some people who did register an increase. Because they were "statistically insignificant", the study was reported to say that artificial sweeteners didn't raise blood sugar levels.

I guess you have to see if you are one of those "statistically insignificant" folks.

Its probably psychological, but I find that adding artificial sweeteners induce cravings for me. But I used to be a sweet binger on things like ice cream and candy.

[laughingW]

Its probably psychological ... I used to be a sweet binger on things like ice cream and candy.Physical too. When you ingest sweets, your body down-regulates endorphin receptors. Doesn't need as many of them if there's lots of sweet coming in.

then later if you quit sweet, your brain is caught without enough receptors for the now trickle of endorphin-raising substances. Takes a while to adapt and let your brain up-regulate the receptors again.

Artificial sweeteners evoke "mu," the science synonym for endorphins in the addiction lit in case you want to do any PubMed searches. In people with downregulated receptors the effect is more, as with any of the things that deal with the opiods.

[MichelleAkers]

Michelle, when my blood sugar drops and I have no food available, one little square of sf gum will stop the process and hold me for about an hour. Every time.

Sandy, I think I read that it's a fact.

I like my Splenda, too, but my doc warns me against any of those chemicals. I've cut way back and save sweet coffee for Sunday morning sipping! :tear: Usually. :o

Hmmm... what's the sweetener in the gum, though? Most of the gums I've seen are sugar alcohols -- which, if I understand correctly, are a different manner of beast...? (I seem to remember reading somewhere that the American Diabetes Association suggested calculating sugar alcohol carb levels not at zero but at 50% of the gram count. Not that I'm suggesting anyone take the ADA's declarations at face value. To put it mildly. Needless to say.)

-- Michelle

[MichelleAkers]

I just read a study where they tested the idea of artificial sweeteners raising blood glucose levels and found, overall, that it didn't. But like all of these studies, you had some people who did register an increase. Because they were "statistically insignificant", the study was reported to say that artificial sweeteners didn't raise blood sugar levels.

I guess you have to see if you are one of those "statistically insignificant" folks.

Its probably psychological, but I find that adding artificial sweeteners induce cravings for me. But I used to be a sweet binger on things like ice cream and candy.

VERY interesting... you & LaughingW just made me think this through and realize... I guess actually the question isn't even whether they affect blood glucose, but rather whether they stimulate release of insulin, huh? (Rather harder to test for at home, that there.)

::::sigh:::: I have a Bad Feeling I'm gonna be cutting way, way back on Splenda here before very long... like only using it at the same time as meals, as if it were a carb. (If anyone here owns stock in Diet Rite, consider this insider information. I've probably been singlehandedly keeping it propped up in this weak economy.)

-- Michelle

[SandyHanson]

(If anyone here owns stock in Diet Rite, consider this insider information. I've probably been singlehandedly keeping it propped up in this weak economy.)

-- Michelle

With a little help from me:nod:

[maxlharris]

I believe Dr. Mike posted on anticipatory insulin release in his blog a year or so ago. The mechanism was that your body gets ready for sweetness by releasing a preparatory insulin burst. As a result, you could be getting ready to drink your iced tea, sweetened to southern levels via your non-caloric sweetener of choice, even Stevia, and you would STILL have an insulin release. Not at the level of drinking actual sugar, but in anticipation of the sweetness, you got a release.

Same thing with smells. Bakeries. Movie popcorn.

That said, the important thing is, it's not the same release you'd get with drinking a sugar coke or actually eating popcorn or donuts. You have an anticipatory release, but you don't have the actual carb load on your system.

[laughingW]

::::sigh:::: I have a Bad Feeling I'm gonna be cutting way, way back on Splenda here before very long... like only using it at the same time as meals, as if it were a carb. That seems like a good plan to me. I loved Diet Pepsi and I'm sure that what I really liked was the combination of aspartame and caffeine. Oh that pesky brain of mine!

[gitfiddle]

Hmmm... what's the sweetener in the gum, though? Most of the gums I've seen are sugar alcohols -- which, if I understand correctly, are a different manner of beast...? (I seem to remember reading somewhere that the American Diabetes Association suggested calculating sugar alcohol carb levels not at zero but at 50% of the gram count. Enlightening, Michelle. The first ingredient is sorbitol, which was not a surprise, followed by malitol, manitol, aspartame and sucralose! Holy cats! :eek::paranoid::frown:

Oh, and it registers 1 carb per square.

[Sharvo]

I bought some Juicy Fruit "sugar free" gum last week ... orange pineapple ... did NOT look at the label (duh) ... it's 2.7g per piece!!! Sorbitol, manitol, hydrogenated starch hydrolosate (love that one!)

I hate throwing things away ... but out it went.

Sneaking a peak at PP frm wk,
Sharvo

[Dutchess2009]

I am a gum fanatic....I do try to limit the # of pieces per day...but I tend to chew a lot during the day at work. I chew Trident. The best and longest lasting flavor I have found is Minty Sweet Twist. Carbs for a stick read <1g, sugars 0, sugar alcohol 1g.

[maxlharris]

SF Gum > gum for keeping blood sugar low, but with sensory response to sweetness or carbiness, its not insulin response free.

[gitfiddle]

So, is there any natural zero carb breath freshener out there? Don't say parsley or sen-sen. :p I don't chew gum for the sweet, but for carnivore breath.

[MichelleAkers]

Enlightening, Michelle. The first ingredient is sorbitol, which was not a surprise, followed by malitol, manitol, aspartame and sucralose! Holy cats! :eek::paranoid::frown:

Oh, and it registers 1 carb per square.

If I understand the claims correctly, though, we're supposed to deduct the grams of sugar alcohols from the gross carb count.

That's where (I think) the ADA claimed we should deduct HALF of the sugar alcohol grams.

Somehow I'm more skeptical about sugar alcohols, actually, than even Splenda.

(Then again, that might just be driven by which I found easier to give up. If quitting the sugar alcohols, increasing fat/reducing protein, and shifting the Splenda to only with meals isn't enough to get me losing at a decent clip again, well, I guess THEN I'll do some serious soul-searching about giving up Splenda. But as of right now I'm feeling pretty optimistic about those other things doing the job.)

-- Michelle

[amdawson]

maybe some mint tea or mint leaf?

[maxlharris]

I would say, if you want to chew something, other than parsley for ketone breath, mint is nice.

Alternatively, live with the small insulin rush of SF gum. That's what I do. In this case, it's a sweat the big stuff thing. As I said, chewing SF gum is >>> than chewing regular gum with regard to insulin release, glycemic load, carb count, etc. Even if you could sugar alcohols the exact way, it's still much better. You're gonna get most of your results from keeping your total carb load low. At a higher level, you can probably get some additional results by not stopping to smell the fresh baked bread and thinking how good it is or chewing mint leaves instead of SF gum. But really, you shouldn't dump the SF gum if it's useful to you and your program isn't optimally tweaked in every other place. We're talking a small effect here.

[gitfiddle]

If quitting the sugar alcohols, increasing fat/reducing protein, and shifting the Splenda to only with meals isn't enough to get me losing at a decent clip again, well, I guess THEN I'll do some serious soul-searching about giving up Splenda.IMHO, sugar alcohols are a serious stall factor. I've heard lots of stories from members of this board and I found it true in my case too. You're on the right track, Michelle.

[gitfiddle]

IBut really, you shouldn't dump the SF gum if it's useful to you and your program isn't optimally tweaked in every other place. We're talking a small effect here. I'm sure you're right, Max. You're talking to a recovering perfectionist here and every once in a while I have to re-visit that quirk. :) Maybe before I settle down, I'll take a peek at what the health food store has. Of course, sugar alcohols abound on their energy bar shelf. :rolleyes:

Mint leaves sound appealing, too. I once had mint in my garden, but it spreads invasively. Definitely a pot plant!

[MichelleAkers]

Definitely a pot plant!

Naaah, I'm told that doesn't really spread invasively.

(Maybe that's why it's a much better cash crop than mint.)

-- Michelle

[gitfiddle]

Naaah, I'm told that doesn't really spread invasively.

(Maybe that's why it's a much better cash crop than mint.)

-- Michelle:suspicious::lol::tongue: I have such a way with words! Max, you've got some competition here! (He's usually on his toes...)

[gitfiddle]

I found some mints at the health food store today, sweetened with xylitol and containing actual peppermint oil. They taste okay, seem to be potent enough.

[maxlharris]

Since ditchweed will grow in all 50 states, and they call it ditchWEED, I suspect it's as invasive as mint.

As to protein breath, I think it would be less effective than mint. But, with a high enough THC content, you might not care about protein breath.

[Omlette]

So, is there any natural zero carb breath freshener out there? Don't say parsley or sen-sen. :p I don't chew gum for the sweet, but for carnivore breath.

Spry gum. It is made with xylitol.

[MichelleAkers]

Spry gum. It is made with xylitol.

Okay, I'm confused -- for purposes of this thread, are we considering sugar alcohols (of which I believe xylitol is one) innocuous?

-- Michelle

[gitfiddle]

Okay, I'm confused -- for purposes of this thread, are we considering sugar alcohols (of which I believe xylitol is one) innocuous?
No, definitely not, just describing the mint. Only one 'tol instead of five, but similar carb count. I'm still searching for something that works without the sweet. May end up with a mint leaf yet! :rolleyes: (Or ditchweed!) ;)