Which macronutrient best to alter?

[Sharvo]

Hi all,
I'm enjoying reading everyone's progress - very inspirational.

Over the past 2 wks I have been averaging 83gm Prot, 35gm Carb & 116 gm fat with 2lb weight loss. My minimum protein requirement is 65gm. And calories have averaged around 1650. I would like to tune-up to slightly accelerate the loss. What change do you think would provide the best result? reducing protein closer to minimum requirement, reducing fat? I'm not sure I want to reduce carbs further. Left to my own devices, I would probably try reducing fat/calories.

Good health,
Sharvo

[maxlharris]

Q: If current plan is working, albeit slowly, why change?
A: Because people can't leave well enough alone.

I wouldn't change anything. You either have lost a pound a week or two pounds a week, and 4% of your goal in two weeks. I do not see a need to change. You are losing promptly.

If I were really motivated to change, I might change meal timing or meal pattern. Eat more smaller meals, or fewer larger ones. But that would be in case of a stall. Alternatively, I might change my exercise routine, or look at specific foods that might be causing a stall, or sloppy counting. These are stall breaking techniques. If you are losing, there is really no need to tweak. Again, really no need to tweak.

[isisrose]

Really great advise Max!

For me personally, even though I am loosing at a great pace right now, I would be ok with slow loss.

These are my thoughts and yes desires if you will:

I don't want to go hungry, I don't do well if I do
I do want to be able to live with it and not feel deprived.

I consider these two key things to long term success, so if it is slow and steady that is fine. If it took me two years to get to my goal (even though I only have a little less than 20 pounds) I would actually be ok with that as long as I don't go hungry and I can live with this and not feel deprived.

Even more importantly than weight...how do you feel? Any health improvements? Any improvements in vitality and energy levels, sleep etc..etc..etc...? I would say if these are improving then you are doing good and the weight may just catch up later. After all how many things can you expect your body to heal all at once? Give your body a chance and give it some time.

With all this said, the one thing that I do look at is perhaps you aren't actually eating enough calories at this point in your journey. There is an amount of calories that you burn everyday just for being alive and for say the work you do, never mind if you work out.

I use fitday and I entered of course my weight and my lifestyle (they ask about the work you do for instance if you sit at a desk all day that is much different in activity level than say construction work, or walking on your feet all day as a food server would do). Right now at current weight and activity level (not including exercise) I come in at around 2500 calories a day burned just from living and lifestyle. If I were eating only 1650 calories that would be a huge deficit and one that may say to my body hey there's a famine out there! You know what happens when your body thinks it isn't getting fed enough food?

So you may want to look at are you eating enough calories. If you still have a lot of weight to loose you probably should eat more not less calories. Currently on my low days I come in at about 2000 calories and on my high days about 2400 calories and find this is working very well for weight loss. I eat fairly frequently in what most would consider small amounts and eat when I am hungry, calories be damned (for now)! As I become smaller and burn less calories for basic living, I will require less. For now I require more, not less.

I would actually not reduce fat, but possibly increase it, for now, as that is such an easy way to add extra calories. The Eades address lowering fat as you get smaller if you find you need to, not in the beginning. So I would say have an extra pat of butter on your broccoli or spinach. Instead of eating your chicken with mayo on your salad, have it on the side and have some dressing on the salad too. These are just examples (and yes I do eat my chicken or tuna with mayo on the side and eat dressing on my salad). Oh and maybe upping the protein a bit too, along with the fat.

And by the way when was the last time you recalculated your protein needs? Keep in mind if you add more muscle to your body, your need for protein goes up. If you up the amount of activity/exercise again the need goes up. Is that still your minimum need or has that changed? Have you added lean body mass/exercise and not recalculated your protein needs, is basically what I am asking. For myself once a week I figure out my fat percentage and my lean percentage and then check my protein needs (even though I am typically currently eating between 30 or so percent more a day, it is just good to have my minimum in my head in MHO).

This is just my personal experience and thoughts take them as you will.

[laughingW]

Hm, 2 pounds a week is good as everyone has said. I bet cutting down on the food side will slow you down, not speed you up. Every time I've tried that, it's what happened. Are you a woman or small man, to have a min protein of 65 grams? if you have a small lean body mass then 2 pounds a week is REALLY GOOD.

MAYBE you could take fat grams down to 1.5 times protein grams, or about 90-100. But watch for rebound hunger, cravings, and fat loss stopping.

How about adding some exercise instead?

I disagree with isisrose on using Fitday's calories calculations. Their underlying formulas overestimate calories for low-carbers and women.

[maxlharris]

I disagree with isisrose on using Fitday's calories calculations. Their underlying formulas overestimate calories for low-carbers and women.

I concur with this statement.

However, using fitday for it's main purpose, food logging and nutrition tracking, is a better than excellent idea.

[isisrose]

I disagree with isisrose on using Fitday's calories calculations. Their underlying formulas overestimate calories for low-carbers and women.

Could you please explain how?

[Sharvo]

Maxlharris: when your comments don't irritate me they crack me up - usuallly it's both simultaneous - I doubt if I'll leave well enough alone.

All, thanks for your feedback - I guess I wasn't clear enough. I lost 2.5 lb over the 2 weeks, not 2lb per.

Neither have I really given much info about myself (because I hate doing so), but since you showed me yours:
* In Oct/07 I started cutting out the "whites"
* In Jan/08 I started LC (PP) in earnest and was trying to keep to 30g carb max to reduce BP & get off Crestor.
* over the spring the BP & blood metrics looked lovely and I lost 62lb, lowered BP and got off Crestor.
* But by Jun/09 my hair was seriously falling out.
* In a panic I started re-introducing carbs and calories and the hair grew back in but ... well ... the chart is below :crybaby:
* During that initial period of weight loss and for the last 2 wks I have been using Kathleen's Diet Planner which is meal planning s/w (that I think is great). So I am very certain of my tracking.
* I'm guessing that the hair loss may have been too little protein & calories so I am trying to be cautious this time.
* I'm 58 and 5'3" - but I think I'm 40 and 5'6" :lol:
* below are 2 bi-weekly charts - 1st frm Apr25/08 second frm these last 2 weeks.
* No doubt this is WAAAY too much information but there you have it.
* I said I was trying to be cautious so maybe I will just have to BE CAUTIOUS and not try to rush it.

http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=146


Apr25/08:
Protein red; carb grn; fat yellow

http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=148

Last 2 weeks:
http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=147

[Sharvo]

Oh, and the green carbs are Net Carbs, not total. And the little X's Ketostix readings. There, now you know more than my sister.

[maxlharris]

So, at 2.5 lbs over two weeks, you are losing at 1.25 lbs a week. That is reasonable loss.

I may have an ad blocker or something that is preventing your charts from appearing, or you may have put them up.

If you were losing hair, you were probably skimping on fat or protein. Both are essential to living the ketogenic diet. Dr. Mike had a post on his blog about a year or so ago about the Kimkins refugees. When you go too low calorie (as the Kimkins dieters were doing, feeling SNATT {Slightly Nauseous All The Time}) or low carb/low fat, you will not produce the things you need to keep your hair healthy and it will fall out. It may grow back white, for a bit, but it will color up. Dr. Mike explained it better.

I would suggest that weight lost at a reasonable clip (like 1..25 lbs a week) will be more sustainably lost than weight lost at 3-5 lbs a week. That goes for fat loss, rather than water loss.

[laughingW]

Could you please explain how?
2 ways: one, leading LC people report they maintain well on fewer calories than predicted, and two, the predicting equations for calories aren't accurate for individuals.

Dr. Mike Eades, Dr. Barry Groves, and Mark Sissons have all reported in their blogs that they do well on 15-20% fewer calories than predicted by the equations. Partly because of the difference in metabolizing a high-carb versus a low-carb diet. So does that mean the equations are too high by that same 20%? i think so.

The last time I checked was the PC version of Fitday, and somewhere in there they mentioned they use the Harris Benedict equations to predict calories needed. The deal with that (or any equations) is they are good over a bunch of people's average, but not accurate for an individual. You can google "accuracy REE equations" for some research. here is just one article:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/88/4/959

So if you are a dietitician for a big group, say 100 people, you can figure out how many calories to buy for a week's worth of food. But for an individual it can be off - by a lot. One article I read which I can't find again said for obese middle aged women (me) the calorie needs could be too high by 30%. Yuck.

If you use it like Max said, to track what you ate, then your own patterns will show you what works. If you like to calorie count then you have a lot of personal research IMO... I just like to count grams myself.

[isisrose]

Thanks for the explanation. And yes I do use it to track what I eat. I am reconsidering using it for just that pretty much.

[Sharvo]

Hi all,
Honestly, I'm going to stop with the long posts, but I had to respond:

When I was working up to re-starting LC in May, I psyched myself up by reading GCBC, then PP and now I'm working my way through PPLP. Serendipidously, I have come across the answer to the question I asked at the beginning of this thread ... it's in the section called How Much Fat Should I Eat, pg 319. They say:

"The anser is both simple and complex. If you're not trying to lose weight (body fat), then you can eat as much good-quality fat as it takes to saisfy your appetite and to maintain your weight - even if that means you munch on nuts, seeds, nut butters, cheeses, jerky, guacamole, and olives all dy long. ... Conversely, if you're carringying too much fat weight, although you must still stick to only good-quality fat for your health, during your period of weight loss, you'll want to keep a rein on the amount of it you eat in order to create a calorie deficit to lose. That way you'll burn your own body fat stores for energy, not the fat your're eating. ... if you're trying to lose weight and your're stuck - even thought your're keeping your carbohydrate intake within the recommended Intervention Level guidelines ... you're probalby eating too much fat for you to be able to lose."

So I do need to maintain a calorie deficit to lose and *if* I were to reduce some macronutrient, it should be the fat rather than the protein. (I'll be increasing frm 1640 to 1740 to see what happens.)

AND I interpret LaughingW's comments that I could even use the Mifflin-St Jeor value rather than the Harris-Benedict shown below (METS has ALWAYS been too many calories for me):


http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=150

2 ways: one, leading LC people report they maintain well on fewer calories than predicted, and two, the predicting equations for calories aren't accurate for individuals.
Dr. Mike Eades, Dr. Barry Groves, and Mark Sissons have all reported in their blogs that they do well on 15-20% fewer calories than predicted by the equations. Partly because of the difference in metabolizing a high-carb versus a low-carb diet. So does that mean the equations are too high by that same 20%? i think so.

I hope your can see the graphic - it's posted in my album as "public".

Anyway, as Geoffrey Chaucer said, The lyfe so short, the crafte so long to lerne.

Good health,
Sharvo

[laughingW]

Yes I can see that. What program is it from? Very nice to give the different equations.

Good luck on your experiments! lookin good.

[Sharvo]

Hi,
I have used Kathleen's Diet Planner (KD) (no affiliation, yada yada) for about 8 months altogehter, off and on. I love it. There is a tutorial and demo version at: http://www.betbyte.com/kdiet.htm

I know most folks here use Fitday and I'm sure it's great (and the price is right) but there are a lot of features in KD that I like, especially being able to customize and build reports.

The hardest part was getting it set up with recipes, and custom foods from labels, but after that it's fairly quick to use. Same I suppose as Fit Day. It requires some care and feeding to get good reports, but it gives me a secure feeling to know that I'm (mostly) on target. Here's a list of the reports that are either delivered or I've customized/built.

1aaSV-Atkins/Prot/Fat/Ke/Wt
1bSV-Prot/Atkin/Fat average
1cSV-Prot/Atkin/Fat trend
2aSV-Wt/Net Calorie trend
3SV-BP/Beef/Egg/K-Na/Caffeine/Sleep
3aSV-Atkins carb/Prot/Fat/Ke/Wt/Atkins spoilers
4SV-K/Na/Mg
5SV-Zit
6SV-Total inches measurements/Wt
7-Wt Left to Lose
8SV-NetCal/Grams/Wt
Carbs, Fibre and Atkins carbs TOTALS per day
Medications with Label and Value marks
NET CALORIES (Eaten minus Burned)
Potential Renal Acid Load White graph
Protein Carbs and Fat with Goals
SV-Grams
SV_fibre
Sodium, Blood Pressure with Fixed left axis
Weight with Trend

Good health,
Sharvo