So how much protein is too much?

[jilly27]

So I'm just starting out on PP and I know my protein requirement calculations are a "minimum" but where does one have to draw the line?
I was an absolute meat hound today! Lack of sleep so of course hungry all day and didn't want to blow the carbs so ate more protein...152g of protein to be exact. My minimum is 72g.... Is this too over the top?

Any and all responses appreciated.

Jilly

[gitfiddle]

So I'm just starting out on PP and I know my protein requirement calculations are a "minimum" but where does one have to draw the line?
I was an absolute meat hound today! Lack of sleep so of course hungry all day and didn't want to blow the carbs so ate more protein...152g of protein to be exact. My minimum is 72g.... Is this too over the top?

Any and all responses appreciated.

JillyJilly, when I'm hungry and don't want to consume carbs, I reach for a protein as a better choice. I don't often double my minimum any more, but I have in the past. You can get away with it. After a while, cravings die down and then it's not an issue.

It's been a while since I read the books, but I think Dr. Mike addresses this.

Lack of sleep throws me off, too. :rolleyes:

[jilly27]

Carol,
Thanks for the reply. I didn't think I had to worry too much about it at the moment. It may be a throw back to the old days of worrying that people are looking at how much you eat and thinking what a pig you are. Have to keep on working on changing the mindset. I'm just finishing the PP book and will be re-reading it immediately to catch a couple of things I have already forgotten! (such as eating way over your minimum protein amount)

Jilly

[Frank Hagan]

Carol,
Thanks for the reply. I didn't think I had to worry too much about it at the moment. It may be a throw back to the old days of worrying that people are looking at how much you eat and thinking what a pig you are. Have to keep on working on changing the mindset. I'm just finishing the PP book and will be re-reading it immediately to catch a couple of things I have already forgotten! (such as eating way over your minimum protein amount)

Jilly

I read it twice, and then got their newest book, Protein Power Life Plan. Its an updated version with some more information in it.

[amdawson]

yeah, as mentioned, at first, don't worry about it too much. you'll find your appetite naturally subsides a bit after a couple of weeks. if you're eating because you're hungry, you're not eating too much.

remember, this is a permanent change. so your protein intake the first week won't make a hill of beans (or should I say hill of beef?) worth of difference in the long run.

[maxlharris]

As I recall, there is no mention of too much protein in either PP or PPLP.
The basic rules:
1- Eat your protein minimum.
2- Eat no more than your carb maximum.
3- Drink water.
4- Eat until satisfied, not stuffed.
5- exercise
6- Take supplements if you have a use for them.

Stick to those, and you'll be pretty far ahead of the game.

[jilly27]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, I feel reassured. Which is probably what most people, myself included, who post here are looking for. ;)
I'm looking forward to a day filled with eggs, chicken, salmon, cheese and lots of cauliflower! And a 20 mile bike ride. Will be ordering PPLP soon to catch some updated info.

[Frank Hagan]

I think "too much protein" is an issue for people with kidney disease or other disorders (I seem to remember the warnings in PPLP on the inside front cover mention this).

You do read all sorts of scare stories about "too much protein", but I asked my doctor about it and he said it wasn't a concern for most healthy people (and he's not a LC diet advocate).

[deirdra]

Check out this old thread: http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2012
particularly posts by Gabriel Guzman.

According to Atkins, 58% of excess protein can be converted to carbs. Also, excess protein can stimulate insulin. But the main reason I stay at or slightly above my minimum requirement is that protein is typically more expensive than fat and I find fat more satiating than protein. Lower-fat protein (like plain skinless chicken breasts) leaves me hungry & craving more if I don't add fat to it.

I don't worry about eating double protein once in a while, but I drink a lot of water when I do as large amounts of protein tend to have a diuretic effect.

[jilly27]

Thanks for the link to Gabriel's info. I think the best piece of info for the average person was the concept of what actually constitutes "excess" protein. We sometimes get so bogged down in the smaller details we miss the big picture.

I think the lack of sleep was the main cause of my insatiable hunger on Tues. Yesterday was no problem :D.

Out for dinner tonight for my Mom's B-day, that could be a test!

Thanks again everyone.

Jilly

[maxlharris]

Please note that the discussion of excess protein in Gabe's post specifically states that it is difficult to determine what is excess. Which I am to understand is NOT to be confused with going over your daily protein requirement.

[jilly27]

I agree Max. Sorry I wasn't clearer on what I said about the concept of what "excess" protein actually is. The majority of the population would be unable to consume enough protein to constitute a true excess.

Jilly

[deirdra]

Please note that the discussion of excess protein in Gabe's post specifically states that it is difficult to determine what is excess. Which I am to understand is NOT to be confused with going over your daily protein requirement.He does, however, seem to consider going significantly over your daily protein requirement every day to be an excess. "Normal" people are usually sated by a bit of extra protein, but there are compulsive eaters and others such as body builders or those with disturbed metabolisms who routinely eat huge amounts of protein with the belief it can do no harm. In the case of compulsive eaters, the insulin stimulation could be driving their compulsion. I always feel hungrier the day after eating >2X my minimum protein requirement (and many more calories than I need), but the same amount of excess calories from fat makes me less hungry so I naturally eat less the next day.

[laughingW]

but there are compulsive eaters and others such as body builders or those with disturbed metabolisms who routinely eat huge amounts of protein

This is true for starve-and-binge eaters too. I too think the excess insulin is driving it.

[maxlharris]

First, it is not useful to confuse body builders, and what they do, with anything related to diabetics, binge eaters, or the normal population.

Second, for weight lifters engaged in hypertrophic activity, I have read that they can make use of protein up to roughly 2.4g / lb of body weight, which would work out to roughly 3 times the protein power recommendation. Again, body builders may have something wrong with them, but it's not the same disturbance as binger eaters and More to Love contestants.

[mcsblues]

Yes, just where are Gabe and Billie anyway?:p

From my talks with Gabe over the years my recollection is that he found it hard to imagine how anyone could or would eat protein to excess - no matter how much we tried to define what "excess" was! :lol: My personal experience suggests you don't need to be a binge eater or a body builder to easily overindulge in low carb food, and while high protein lower fat items like the dreaded skinless chicken breasts or tuna without the mornay sauce are more satiating - I think that is more the nature of the dry, unappetising food rather than the macronutrient balance!;)

Its been far too long since I read DANDR but I'm not sure if Atkins fell for the 58% glucose conversion nonsense - certainly some of the other low carb plans do (Optimal, Banta etc) - but the science is pretty clear - even if your insulin resistance has progressed to type 2 diabetes stage - as long as you are still producing insulin, even large doses of protein will not spike blood sugar - and the advantages of protein over carbs extend beyond the energy inefficiencies of producing the small amounts of glucose required in the absence of 'sufficient' dietary carbs. There are also the 'futile cycling' pathways which I'm sure Mike has covered in his blogs more than once - which 'waste' energy as heat.

Insulin? Yes protein will spike (although nowhere near as much as carbs) insulin but it will also stimulate a corresponding release of glucagon ... so the minor impact is moderated.

[laughingW]

glucose conversion nonsense - certainly some of the other low carb plans do (Optimal, Banta etc)
Lower protein recommendations are not automatically due to "falling for glucose conversion nonsense." Just as an FYI.

[mcsblues]

Lower protein recommendations are not automatically due to "falling for glucose conversion nonsense." Just as an FYI.
Well that is the reasoning used on the plans I mentioned. Apart from lowering calories (which of itself wouldn't change the ratios), what other reasons do you know of?

[Spruce Goose]

One of my friends does LC. She did atkins back in the day but in the last year and a half she was lured into Kimkins.

Fast results on the kimkins starvation diet. She'd lose about 30 lbs, hit the wall and it'd catch up with her. She'd have all sorts of side effects along the way that she'd ignore (hair starting to fall out, not having a period, etc). Eventually she couldn't keep it up and she'd gorge. Not on LC but on carbs. Over the course of a short period of time she'd put back on all the weight and then some.

Happily this time around she's decided to get back on the wagon with normal atkins and add in some exercise. She's not paying attention to the scale and just focusing on how much better she feels.

All of that was said for a reason. Somewhere through all of that she picked up the notion that protein gives a fairly large insulin response and is almost as bad as carbs. I think it was probably kimkins as she is more pro-protein these days (before about the only protein she seemed to get was boneless skinless chicken breasts).

The topic of protein was one we often disagreed about. None of her plans had a minimum and mine did.

I've found this thread and the linked previous discussion very interesting as I've often wondered about the question myself. Thanks for all the great info!

[deirdra]

First, it is not useful to confuse body builders, and what they do, with anything related to diabetics, binge eaters, or the normal population.I was actually listing them to show the wide range of different types of people who can eat a lot of protein, intentionally or otherwise, and have no problem getting it all down despite the theory that protein is so satiating that people rarely will eat more than their minima (unless, as Malcolm said, their protein comes from plain skinless chicken breasts).

Body builders and "normal" people probably use most of the protein they eat with no problems, but the others may have problems with excess protein stimulating insulin with more than a minor effect. In people with a disordered insulin response, I doubt the release of glucagon corresponds as it should.

[laughingW]

Well that is the reasoning used on the plans I mentioned. Apart from lowering calories (which of itself wouldn't change the ratios), what other reasons do you know of?I am a fan of the Optimal plan. One reason is not so much about glucose and insulin as it is about metabolic efficiency - not wasting metabolic energy. Dealing with extra protein is not worth the processing, in that view. It is better to give the metabolic organs a rest and leave the energy metabolismto the mix of carb and fat, which can deliver energy at less metabolic cost.

[mcsblues]

Hmmm, surely that is an advantage of protein not a disadvantage - when you are talking weight loss/maintenance inefficiency is GOOD! :)

[laughingW]

when you are talking weight loss/maintenance inefficiency is GOOD!

Maybe if your liver and pancreas are firing at 100%. I am sure mine were/are fatty, clogged and choking. The OD, with its idea of minimally involving the foods that trigger hormones, has really increased my fat loss compared to the higher protein levels.

There is inefficient and then there is putting a such a burden on the metabolism that it grinds to a halt. That's how i think of it anyway.

[mcsblues]

Look, don't get me wrong, I don't have any problems with fiddling around with the ratios to find what works best for you - and I'm sure you will agree this is perfectly compatible with the PP approach - the PP minimums for protein wouldn't be much different from the number which is both minimum and maximum for Optimal (and Kwasniewski does say protein should form a higher percentage initially for obese patients). What I do take issue with is the lack of science behind any of his claims - not just the protein/glucose thing but other suggestions such as the need to keep carbs high enough to avoid ketosis and muscle wastage, or that fructose is "readily broken down by the liver to glucose" or that other higher protein low carb plans are a recipe for dangerous kidney disease ...

But then again - I guess some of those things might be why we are both here! :)

[laughingW]

Righty oh! I grant you the lack of science in his writings. Luckily, sometimes I am okay with doing my experiment of one before waiting for corroboration.

And as you say, it's consistent with PP anyway.