Superior doctors prevent the disease.
Mediocre doctors treat the disease before evident.
Inferior doctors treat the full-blown disease.
— Huang Dee Nai-Chang—
(2600 BC 1st Chinese Medical Text)
Truer words were never spoken. While contemplating these words, let’s take a look at what is important to our ‘superior’ mainstream doctors of today in the field of diabetes treatment. Below is a copy of an email I received today from Medscape, the folks who are kind of the WebMD to MDs. (I posted on another email from Medscape a few days back – the one with the annoying video of the two doctors telling how patients should take charge of their own health.)
Read the list of the top 10 articles that were of most interest to physicians taking care of diabetic patients in 2007.
How many of these top 10 articles had to do with preventing diabetes and how many dealt with treating diabetes? Nine out of the ten deal with treatment or treatment failures or side effects of various treatment regimens for the full-blown disease. Only one, the last one, deals with any kind of nutritional issues. And that one references a paper published in Diabetes Care that shows that following the 2005 U.S. Dietary Guidelines (low-fat, high-carb) may be effective in reducing insulin resistance in women but had no effect in men. So the only preventative paper that all these ‘superior’ docs were interested in reading was one that basically showed that the diet most of them wholeheartedly believe in was minimally effective in women and not effective at all in men.
I’ve been in practice for a long, long time and have taken care of many, many diabetic patients, and I can tell you that there is no more single effective remedy for these patients than a low-carbohydrate diet. There is no medicine (aside from injectable insulin) that reduces blood sugar as effectively as simply avoiding carbohydrates. Which make sense when you think about it. Diabetes is a disease of too much sugar in the blood. Why would anyone want to treat it by adding more sugar to the already too-high levels. But most of the physicians who read these top 10 papers don’t think that way – they are so afraid of fat that the only place left for them to go with diet is in the direction of more carbs. And, as a consequence, ever increasing dosages of various blood-sugar-lowering medicines.
I may take the time at some point to post the top 10 papers of 2007 that would most help doctors actually benefit their patients with diabetes, obesity and the rest of the metabolic syndrome. But not right now. MD is hounding me to come help her pack. We fly out of here to New York at the crack of dawn tomorrow.
I’ll post as much as time allows on this busy trip.


  1. DR. E.
    Sad comment on the state of diabetes treatment today. I am sure that in the coming years there will be a lot of forehead smacking. I just hope it won’t take decades.
    Have fun in my old stomping ground. Haven’t been to New York in 18 years. which is kind of weird since I grew up there.

  2. As a type-2 diabetic, I have been seeing my doctor for about 3 years. He went from Metformin, through Glybluride and diamicron. I ate a low fat diet 1300 calories really ‘starvation’ diet. I was eating like a mouse… 1/2 banana, 1/2 slice of bread.. every two hours. Absolute misery. And even then my blood sugar was all over the place. I found low carb on my own after eating a big dinner at a friends house which was all meat and salad and finding my sugar stay normal. After this and subsequent investigation/ education .. your book, Dr. Berstein etc. I take only metformin and sugar levels are basically in normal range. My doctor says that I am ‘the best controlled diabetic’ amongst his 60 patients. But, through this entire process, over the past six months, my doctor has asked for very little detail about what I eat or how there has been such a dramatic improvement. I show him my data that I track everyday and charts of blood sugar, CHO, calories every visit … all he says is “continue to do what you are doing”. He dutifully gets blood work and tests done that I ask for based on the books that I read. I have offered to give him a copy of the book(s) and help other patients that he may have … but there is no interest. Lately, I am taking charge — eg. I stopped Lipitor on my own .. my doctor said that I should continue to take it.. I asked for the evidence. He said that “numerous studies… it is like drano and keeps everything clean”. Thanks to the Taubes book, I know the truth re: these studies.
    Your comments about the quality of doctors is right on. Also, it is pretty sad that the doctors continue to be fed mostly bad science thanks to the ADA. Most of them practice based on what they have learned and do not want to try anything different or learn anything new when the evidence stares them in the face. The other sad thing here in Canada is a shortage of family physicians .. contrary to what we saw in “Sicko”. It is not easy to switch and find good doctors. There are good doctors but they are usually not taking any new patients.. that is how the (dis)incentive process works.. with tax rates and socialized medicine.
    Last week, a friend of mine was diagnosed with type 2. We talked for a few hours and I have him all the information on low carbs, the books, tracking sheets and he seemed to understand and eager to start. He then went and saw his dietitian/ doctor and now says he is going to first try follow their recommendations .. eating 3 to 5 servings of fruit, low GI pumpernickel/ sour dough bread, etc. I tried to tell him to forget about low GI (<55) and look at zero GI (fat and protein) and ultra low GI (vegetables). It is very frustrating …
    I don’t know if/when the ADA guidelines for diabetics will change. In the meantime, we have a whole generation of MDs who have learned the wrong stuff and whole heartedly believing in it and doing the wrong things to us.
    Is there a directory of diabetic specialists who understand practice low carb? Very few in Canada it would seem. Can there be education/ training for them by experts like yourselves?
    Your story is sad and all too common. Fortunately for you it has had a happy ending. I’m sorry to see your friend starting out adopting such folly.
    I don’t know of a directory of physicians who practice low-carb. I wish there were one.

  3. Unrelated question:
    Angiotensin II inhibitors like Benicar apparently have the additional effect of dramatically lowering Vitamin D 1,25D in the body, and some think this is useful for people with Lyme disease and chronic fatigue system (“Marshall Protocol.”)
    However, for hypertensives who don’t have CFS or Lyme disease, does this trait mean that drugs like Benicar, while reducing blood pressure, might be increasing coronary blockage by interfering with Vitamin D? (I guess my question is, if Vitamin D is so important, are angiotensin II inhibitors problematic for blocking Vitamin D? Do they make Vitamin D supplementation pointless? If so, what’s a better drug for hypertension?)
    Anyway, if this question is too far afield, ignore it, and thanks for a great blog.
    Hi Edward–
    I don’t have any experience with Benicar and I don’t really have any experience with Lyme disease, having never practiced where it is endemic. And I don’t know anything about the Marshall Protocol.
    I would suspect that any drug that reduced the concentration of vitamin D wouldn’t do a lot of good in terms of heart disease prevention. If I have to use a drug to treat hypertension that isn’t responsive to a low-carb diet (about 20 percent of hypertension is not responsive to a low-carb diet) the ACE inhibitors are my drug of choice.

  4. Hi Doc–right on the money as usual. I’ve commented about this before–my stepdad is diabetic, eats lots of carbs, and his Dr. thinks his diet is fine. What keeps physicians from seeing something that is so obvious?
    As an aside, am I the only one who is sick of the Wilford Brimley commercials for “diabeetis” supplies? (If you call today you can get a free copy of the American Diabetes Assoc. cookbook–I don’t even want to imagine what’s in it.) He’s diabetic himself–maybe something to do with all the Quaker Oats he consumed in the past?
    Wilford is obviously not a follower of the low-carb diet as evidenced by both his body and his diabetes. Should he decide to come to his senses and stop listening to the diabetes ‘experts’ he could probably restore his own health and never have to worry about ‘diabeetis’ supplies.

  5. or as Richard Burton famously and apparently said ” Dr’s are like actors, there are a few good ones and the rest are awful’
    Which sounds like a fat tailed power law distribution but what the feck do i know.
    Seasonal Shite and all that gubbins
    Richard Burton is certainly right as far as docs are concerned.

  6. Thanks again Dr. Eades: Once again it’s clear that the medical community is clueless about diabetes and low-carb. Probably the same medical intelligentsia that advises the airlines. I thought I’d check to see what the diabetic meals were on United before my flight (which they listed under medical meals). This is what United believes diabetics should eat:
    Medical diets
    Diabetic meals
    Below are the guidelines United® follows in preparing diabetic meals. While the diabetic menus we provide may not fit the menu plan of every person with diabetes, the nutritional analysis provided with the meal will allow you to regulate fat, protein, and carbohydrate intake more easily. Our diabetic meals are low-calorie as well.
    Sugars, syrups, jams, pies, chocolate, fried and fatty food, sweetened cereals, sweetened yogurts.
    Fresh vegetables, lean meat (without skin), pasta, low-fat milk, fresh fish, bread/whole grain, potatoes, rice, low fat margarine, fresh fruit or water-packed canned fruit, low-fat cheese, eggs, dietary preserves, dietary salad dressing, sugar free foods.
    Wow, give me some pasta with that rice!!
    Thanks again Doc.
    Dave Futoma
    The ignorance (or is it stupidity?) out there amongst people who should know better is breathtaking.

  7. Hi Doctor
    I am type 2 for 2 years now. My doctor started out trying to send me to a dietician
    and I resisted and told him that I would not pay good money to someone with whom I would never agree with. I lowered my A1C to 5.5 from 7.2 with nothing other than low carb. He winced when we talked about what I was doing but now he is all smiles and actually is much more open about low carb, and even asks me questions because he admits that I help keep him informed about any thing new (thanks to you and your blog) with studies etc.
    thanks from a type 2 reader.
    Patients like you who have great results end up being the best catalysts for physicians to give low-carb an evaluation. I’m glad you’ve done so well.

  8. It has often puzzled me why doctors and nutrition professionals are so resistant to carbohydrate reduction as a treatment for diabetes in the face of so much evidence that it works. And while there is quite likely more than one reason for this resistance, I think at least part of the problem is that sick people are profitable to the medical industry and well people aren’t. To borrow a quote that Jonny Bowden recently used in a blogpost on a different subject: “in the words of Upton Sinclair: ‘It is difficult to get a man to understand something, if his salary depends upon him not understanding it.'” I am not accusing doctors of rejoicing in the illness of their patients because of the profit it will bring or of giving guidance they know will make their patients worse in order to make more money, but I do think the amount of money to be made from sick people plays a judgment-clouding role. (The heart specialist who treated my now-deceased mother who needs a special garage to house his six Jaguars comes to mind.) Disease pays big time for all the players involved in treatment; prevention doesn’t.
    The other side of the coin is people who are not motivated to take care of themselves. Disease prevention or management through nutritional choices and exercise involves a lot of self-denial and self-mastery, virtues that are not heavily promoted in our post-Christian, self-serving, immediate-gratification-seeking world. We want to eat whatever we want whenever we want without any consequences. But when the consequences arrive, then we want our doctors to give us the magic pill that will make everything better, we want the health industry to fix us and our insurance to pay for it. (Of course, people first have to hear the message that diabetes can be prevented or treated through carbohydrate restriction and that carbohydrates are addictive, and many people never hear that message, but once we do, and we’ve tried it and we know it works, then we have to summon the discipline to stay on course.)
    The whole culture is enslaved to a damage-control mentality, and not just in its approach to physical health. In everything from having to clean up the earth after we pollute it to aborting our babies after we create them, it’s all about trying to make a problem go away that never should have happened in the first place.
    Hi Ethyl–
    Well put and spot on.

  9. My story is identical to Guru’s. Would it be possible to convince the “medical establishment”, if there existed a self-reported outcomes registry of some sort on the internet? Perhaps someone could convince a diabetic biostatistician that has had success with low-carb to define a protocol and analysis plan for the registry.
    Good luck in finding such a person. Who knows? It might work.

  10. Dr. Mike,
    I must be one of the lucky ones, I have an endocrinologist who recommended the lo-carb diets to me about a year ago when my thyroid levels settled and I needed to lose about 50 pounds. He gave me a list and said to research them and choose the one that made the most sense to me and use it. I did, came to the Protein Powerplan, bought all the books, and lost most of the weight. I’m still working on the last few pounds, but it’s such a joy to be able to bend over and tie my shoes. Keep up the good work, and keeping us informed.

  11. Dr. Mike: Hope you and MD are having fun in NYC and, when you have your coffee klatsch with Gary T., I trust he is not getting discouraged. I think there are a lot of people, not just on this forum, who very much appreciate what he has done / is doing. They may not now be very vocal about it, but I’m betting they are out there. It may take some time, but I think he and his book will gain traction; patience is in order. (If it’s not too late, ask Gary how book sales are shaping up.)
    Slightly OT, re one of the comments suggesting that you, MD and Gary (perhaps joining with other professionals of like mind) produce a video: Obviously that would be a substantial undertaking, and a problem unless some well-healed person(s) or organizations would be willing to sponsor and finance. Maybe your new Thincs colleagues would also have some ideas about potential sponsors, not necessarily just in the USA, as well as additional participants. The thought came to me that, among those, perhaps for starters the assoc. of bariatric physicians would be interested. Also, I wouldn’t overlook one of the newer, well-healed foundations, such as Bill and Melinda Gates. (Surely someone among your’s, Gary’s and Thinc’s colleagues circle of contacts could get through to some of these.)
    The need for something like a documentary film (maybe with some humor and satire thrown in to relieve the tedium here and there), a format more appealing perhaps to those who don’t read much or have patience to read challenging material, seems great.
    Hi Wil–
    A documentary would be great, but, as you point out, tremendously expensive. One of the many things I’ve found that I’m not cut out for is fund raising. If someone gets the dough, I’ll be happy to put in the time and effort to make the film.

  12. For Guru, in addition to Dr. Berstein’s excellent advice, if you haven’t already found it, be sure to read for yourself and send your friend to “What They Don’t Tell You About Diabetes” info website & the Diabetes Update blog. Great info from a very informed layperson with diabetes that helped me determine that I was pre-diabetic before my doctors knew it (because they weren’t looking for it despite my gestational diabetes history, plus my low carb diet is already treating it, making normal lab results and mananaging my weight in a normal range). But I have no doubt that without a low carb lifeplan since January 2004, I would already have advanced to T2 by now and be very overweight. Perhaps then my doctors would have noticed something, but I even wonder about that sometimes.
    Restricting carbs and eating high quality real food is a lifelong treatment plan, the best option to try it first and stick with it, as you have discovered. It’s hard to argue with results. My new endocrinologist also doesn’t ask questions about how I do it, either (he has only ever seen the good results I have achieved on my own and doesn’t appreciate what my condition would be like if I ate carbs like the average person). But at least he doesn’t fight me or try to give me diet advice, or push drugs (yet). He backed down about my LDL (the only individual blood lipid level I have not in an excellent range) when I countered everything he said and ended with “if it concerns you that much then order tests for other biomarkers like CRP and homocysteine, etc. It doesn’t concern me because the important levels like HDL and triglycerides are probably among the best you have seen, despite high LDL and high total chol.” He couldn’t disagree and I think he “understands” me now. And I’m sure the next patient was already waiting for his pearls of wisdom in the next room ;-). Good luck educating your doctor.
    Hi Anna–
    Excellent recommendations, all.

  13. I feel blessed! I found my current family practitioner (D.O.) earlier this year. It turns out that she is a Type I diabetic herself and is very much into the low-carb way of managing diabetes and also of just low carb eating in general. (I’m a Type 2, controlled by diet, and also have celiac disease) Every book or article I’ve mentioned, she seems to have already read and has positive feedback about. She is also anti-statins! I have never gone to any doctor before who seems so well-read and so up on the latest articles, books, and research. She has even recommended articles, websites, and books to me I had not read or was not familiar with. If anyone here in Tucson, AZ would like to know her name, I’d be glad to share it. I feel that she is a rare jewel! (Just like you and Dr. MD!)
    Hi Carol–
    I’m glad you’re in the hands of a good doc. Does anyone out there need a good doc in Tucson?

  14. A couple of follow-on comments to the video “project” idea. Perhaps it’s pie-in-the-sky, but the idea of trying to get an organization such as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation on board with something like this actually makes a bit of sense, at least to moi. I’m aware that they are focused on attacking serious public health problems in third world countries, and admirably so. But in some respects it seems to me that the USA also finds itself in the same kind of dilemma as some third world countries when it comes to how diabetes and heart disease are dealt with — we’re treating numbers or symptoms after the fact and never getting to the cause / cure. And a lot of our own citizens who have these problems don’t have the know-how or the wherewithal to become properly educated about it, or properly counseled / treated when they need it (I’m thinking here of the uninsured, but not just them). How is that any better than the third world public health problems we read about?
    So if a truly independent, well-financed, non-profit foundation can be convinced we have a really serious public health problem here in the good old USA (which we sure as hell do!), and that this problem is not being properly addressed and is in fact getting worse, and further is eventually going to bankrupt our country with ever-skyrocketing health care costs (thinking of the baby-boomer bulge here as well as the growing childhood obesity problem), that seems to me to be a problem worthy of a full-blown, well-financed, public education, science-based attack….and the science is already there, laid out in detail in Gary Taubes’ book! Unfortunately, it’s not a problem that our federal government, ridden with all the special interests and related $$ corruption, can tackle effectively; sad but true. Perhaps only a truly independent, not-for-profit organization could help get the job done. (Whew, I said it.)
    Ok, I could go on for awhile longer (maybe forever), but I guess I’ve made my point, perhaps to the point of nausea for your poor readers.
    BTW, I have the perfect idea for a director for the video “project” — how about Woody Allen? 🙂
    I think he’s a serious and seriously-talented guy who could help the project be entertaining, thereby making the crucially important science info easier to swallow.
    Hey Wil–
    It’s all a good idea, but it’s getting someone who both can afford it and who can see the real solution to the problem. Unfortunately, it seems that those who can afford it typically are those who have bought into the low-fat party line.
    Somehow Woody Allen doesn’t strike me as a real carnivore.

  15. Dr. Eades, do you have any insight on a link between caffeine and insulin resistance? I’ve seen quite a few articles connecting the two.
    Hi Kellen–
    Numerous studies have shown that coffee intake is protective against type II diabetes, which is a disease of insulin resistance. Given this data I can’t see how caffeine (in the doses found in several cups of coffee per day) could bring on or worsen insulin resistance.

  16. Being a type II diabetic who has done exceptionally well on a very low carb diet (VLC) this is a subject that I can really sink my teeth into. A consistent observation of mine has been that the majority of MDs, far from being problem solvers or even slightly curious, do nothing more than look for ‘indications’ (i.e. presenting symptom patterns) on which to prescribe one or more of a small number or drugs in their repertoire. In this respect, MDs are very much like vending machines. Here one looks at graphic pictures showing the available options then deposits a specified sum of money and pushes the button that goes with their choice. In this sort of association-linking process vending machines may be more accurate and reliable in the long run in prescribing medications than MDs.
    If an MD does not find a familiar indication in the presenting symptom pattern (‘no indication) they have no impetus to act. So they typically do nothing.
    I agree completely with Dr. Eades statement that “There is no medicine (aside from injectable insulin) that reduces blood sugar as effectively as simply avoiding carbohydrates.”
    The more I have avoided carbohydrates the more my blood sugars have improved. However, I have seen spectacular improvement on a VLC diet in combination with intermittent fasting to a degree that strongly suggests at least a partial restoration of phase 1 insulin response.
    It is widely believed, even by alternative diabetic doctors such as Richard Bernstein, that type II diabetics have no phase 1 insulin response. But in arriving at such a conclusion I wonder whether the apparent absence of a phase 1 response has been critically analyzed. Indeed one is hard pressed to find any critical studies of the phase 1 insulin response.
    My understanding of the phase 1 insulin response is that it can be likened to a fire suppression system for a commercial cooking appliance that quenches fires emergencies. In the phase 1 response, preformed insulin secreted by the pancreas builds up in a storage depot. When neurological signaling loops detect a rapid and large increase in blood glucose levels a large amount of insulin is released in a rush in what is termed an ‘insulin dump’. This has the effect of knocking down the flames of an inrush of glucose. It’s like dropping flame retardant on a fire.
    After the initial phase 1 insulin dump, subsequent rises in blood glucose are managed by on demand insulin secretion. Under normal circumstances it can take 5 or more hours to replenish the insulin dump reservoir. Diabetics following the typical ADA/CDA high carbohydrate, 3 meals per days plus snacks diet are advised to not go more than 2 hours without eating carbohydrates in order to “maintain their blood sugar”. This eating pattern will certainly keep BG elevated. But in addition it will ensure that the insulin sensitivity never recovers and will actually worsen and that the insulin dump reservoir is prevented from replenishing. In my view when endorse by a medical professional this diet amounts to doctor assisted suicide.
    If the lack of phase 1 insulin response in type II diabetics is due to an inability of the insulin dump reservoir to replenish because of the unavailability of excess insulin or very long dump depot recycling times then one would expect diabetics to improve dramatically by eating 2 or fewer widely space meals per day. This is exactly what has happened in my case.
    I encourage Dr. Eades to explore this issue and what has erroneously called insulin resistance in future threads.
    Hi David–
    Great explanation of the 1st phase insulin response. I don’t know whether or not it is blunted in most type II diabetics, but I would bet it’s not blunted in all of them, even those with who are on injectable insulin.
    I just heard a great story from an endocrinologist/diabetologist who was heavily involved in the Katrina disaster. There were many, many diabetics trapped after Katrina and unable to get the insulin supplies they needed. Medical personnel were extremely worried that as a consequence there would be thousands and thousands of deaths. In actuality, there wasn’t nearly the problems expected because not only were these people out of medicine, they were out of food as well. After going for a few days on few calories, their diabetes improved markedly, and all the fears of whole scale mortality vanished. Interesting, no?

  17. My husband is diabetic and obese (400-ish pounds) but his cholesterol/triglycerides are completely normal. The doc wants to put him on statins anyway – preventatively. And high blood pressure medicine. To “protect the kidneys.” So far, he’s refused. Granted, his sugar is high. Fasting: 300. But he’s not eating low-carb right now, and when he was, it was much better.
    I would SO love for you to post those 10 helpful articles. I hear you’re busy in NY, but if you get the chance, please don’t forget about this post. We could REALLY benefit from it. I’ll print them out for our doc. 🙂
    Hi Queen B–
    That’s assuming your doc would read them if you brought them in. I’ll root around when I get back to see if I can’t come up with a post on the best 10 papers of 2007.
    If you and/or your husband are worried about his heart condition have him get an EBT scan to check for calcium scores. It’s not all that expensive and is much more of a predictor as to who has heart disease than lipid levels.

  18. Guru, I would rather have socialized medicine for emergencies, and more emphasis on people taking responsibility for their own health. Be your own doctor. No disease results from a drug deficiency, AFAIK. It’s from a deficient or unbalanced diet – refined carbs, raw plant food, an excess of carbs, vegetable oils, not enough protein/fat. There’s too much reliance on doctor and accepting all kinds of toxic drugs: anti-biotics, cough medicine, pain relievers, etc. Drugs are poison. Doctors are the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA.
    The only doctors I would listen to are those recommending high-fat and low-carb carnivorous diets. Jan Kwasnieski seems to be achieving great results with a diet of like 75-85% fat, 10-15% protein, and 5-10% carbs. He claims to cure type 1 & 2 diabetes, not just reduce medication, but eliminate the need for it entirely (while the diet is followed).

    We pretty much do have socialized medicine for emergencies right now. All emergency rooms that are a part of hospitals receiving Medicare (virtually all of them) have to provide emergency services to any one who hits the door. These hospitals do charge for it, but collect very little other than from those who have insurance.
    And you’re right, doctors are dangerous.

  19. My husband works with a living example of low-carb “curing” diabetes (Is that the right word? It seems to be). My husband himself has lost 20 pounds and improved his total cholesterol levels (205 to 165) on a “meat and vege” diet that I prescribed (as a lawyer not a doctor, don’t you love it?). Now that he’s actually seen it work (twice), he’s hooked.
    Funny side note: after his most recent test the nurse told him that the doctor recommended that he stop taking his cholesterol medication. The funny part–he wasn’t on any. The doctor simply assumed that he would be, given the numbers.
    It is frustrating to talk to anyone that hasn’t really dived into the literature or is simply brainwashed by the media or their very own doctors. How can people disagree with something like my husband’s results? I eat two eggs everyday — everyone asks “do you have high cholesterol??” My answer is simply, “Nope.” You can’t talk to people. It’s exactly the phenomenon you described a while ago – keep saying something and it must be true.
    I respect you continuing the fight.
    We’ve all got to keep after it. Believe me, I understand your frustration.

  20. Hi Mike,
    Thank you for all your interesting blogs and the varied topics that you cover. With respect to the question is there a database of doctors practising low carb for diabetes, there is a website, run by Steve Freed and David Joffee. I know they started a data base of doctors interested in and practicing a low carb approach to diabetes. Its an informative useful website in many respects and well worth a look.
    Hi Tahir–
    Thanks for the link. We’ll see if there is some feedback from readers who try to find physicians through it.

  21. To Ethyl D.
    Excellent comment — it really resonates! Thank you for articulating so well what we have been thinking quite awhile ourselves. We’ve also been saying much of this back and forth to each other a lot, partially out of frustration because it seems that so many people we know, including close relatives, don’t want to hear it and probably think we have gone radical and are sorely misguided, and that maybe eventually we’ll come to our senses and “get over it.” (No way!)
    Also a great Sinclair quote. 🙂
    And kudos to Dr. Mike (again) for providing this forum that so many thoughtful and intelligent individuals visit.

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